Tokenized Podcast
Fifth Third Bank: Stablecoins, the Ultimate Instant Settlement Payment
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TL;DR
Research summary
▶ Introduction and Fifth Third’s scale
The opening describes stablecoin settlement as a way to show near-real-time movement, transaction-time value, and payment cost; clients care that funds arrive and know the cost, whether or not they use a stablecoin. Hosts Simon Taylor and Ran Goldi introduce Igor Istratov, who leads digital asset product work at Fifth Third and Newline. Goldi describes Fifth Third as one of the top 10 U.S. banks, with almost $300 billion in assets, more than $240 billion in deposits, over 1,500 U.S. branches, and more than $18 trillion in payments processed; these figures are presented by Goldi. He also explains the podcast’s focus on stories behind stablecoins and tokenized deposits. The hosts give a views-and-opinions disclaimer and identify Fireblocks and Visa as sponsors.
▶ Igor’s background and Newline’s role
Igor says his career focus has been using technology to reduce payment friction and costs and improve customer experience. At JPMorgan, he worked on wholesale payments, progressing from strategy and pilots to a client product suite; at SoFi, he saw consumer demand for instant funding and a clean experience. He says those perspectives—from global settlement to the individual sending a payment—keep him in the field. He leads digital asset product partnerships and regulatory engagement at Fifth Third. Newline is the bank’s API-first embedded finance platform, through which enterprises can launch payment, card, and deposit products directly with Fifth Third. Igor describes it as fintech-like technology on a top-10 bank’s balance sheet, so stablecoin issuers and exchanges can access both APIs and a bank.
▶ Commercial demand and regulatory clarity
Igor says the conversation among banks changed over the past few years as client demand shifted from crypto exposure to operational efficiency. Commercial clients outside crypto ask why payments take days, why they must hold cash in multiple currencies, and why money cannot move 24/7; he says they seek faster payments, lower costs, and better cash management. A host compares the roughly $300 billion stablecoin supply, citing recent reports, with the bank’s commercial payment volumes, which the host says are many multiples larger. Igor says any stablecoin activity must fit the bank’s established risk, compliance, and operational framework. He attributes the shift in opportunity to client pain points and greater regulatory clarity: he cites interpretive letters confirming national banks can provide crypto custody and related banking services, and says an act established a federal framework for stablecoin payments. He says that combination moved banks from watching to acting.
▶ Newline’s four account types and reserve balances
Igor outlines four account types available through Newline for digital asset businesses: operating accounts for company cash, payroll, and vendors, separated from customer funds; settlement accounts for fiat settlement with exchanges, liquidity providers, and payment partners; reserve accounts holding fiat behind issuance, circulation, and redemption; and FBO or custodial accounts holding eligible customers’ fiat separately from company cash with customer-level records. He characterizes these as foundational banking plumbing. Asked whether stablecoins create deposit risk, Igor says reserves should be considered as a capital-markets question as well as an operational one. He says the deposits backing stablecoins must be held somewhere with proper segregation, control, and reporting, which he presents as a banking function and opportunity.
▶ Cross-border settlement and client priorities
The hosts discuss how banks could hold deposits associated with stablecoin issuers. Igor says both digital asset businesses and midsize manufacturers could benefit: he gives a hypothetical manufacturer in Ohio paying suppliers in Asia, with Thailand as an example corridor. He describes correspondent-bank wires facing cut-off times or weekends, delayed confirmations, FX movement, fee uncertainty, and limited visibility into where a payment is. Igor says a stablecoin settlement component can provide near-real-time movement, transaction-time value, traceability, and real-time settlement visibility. He says many clients do not care that the mechanism is a stablecoin; they care that the money arrives that day and that they can see its cost in real time.
▶ Operational demands and complementary payment rails
Igor says the hard work lies around the technology: compliance and screening of onchain counterparties, liquidity management when the rail runs 24/7 but funding windows do not, reconciliation and reporting for clients, treasury teams, and regulators, client readiness, and governance. He says many treasury teams are not set up to hold or manage digital assets, so banks must absorb complexity; programs undergo the same risk, legal, compliance, and audit reviews as other bank products. He identifies round-the-clock product support, staffing, and controls as operational challenges. On domestic payments, he says real-time payments and FedNow are final, instant, and well understood, while stablecoins are generally differentiated in cross-border payments and multicurrency accounts. He argues stablecoins should be another rail in a portfolio, with banks routing payments to the suitable rail and handling orchestration.
▶ Fireblocks sponsorship message
A host says clients want the money to reach the recipient or business quickly without having to think about payment rails, then introduces a Fireblocks sponsorship message. The ad claims Fireblocks supports over $100 billion in monthly stablecoin volume and enables PSPs, fintechs, remitters, and banks to issue, move, hold, and manage stablecoins. It names Visa, Worldpay, Bridge, and Revolut as businesses using its infrastructure, and says the platform offers stablecoin orchestration, payment accounts, liquidity management, and on- and off-ramps in over 60 currencies. These volume and currency figures are claims made in the sponsorship segment.
▶ Banking opportunity, partners, and integration
Igor says that if stablecoins grow without banks participating, deposits may migrate and banks may lose client relationships. Reserves need a place to sit, redemptions need to clear, and issuers need to operate and settle; he describes this as a fee and deposit opportunity as well as a risk, and says a concentrated market needs more regulated banking capacity. On partnerships, he says banks and fintechs do not build the ecosystem alone: issuers, custody providers, infrastructure and on/off-ramp providers, processors, and data providers each supply specialized capabilities. He describes the bank’s role as a regulated fiat foundation and orchestration across accounts, rails, controls, reporting, and partners, so clients can experience the pieces as one integrated service. Goldi says Fireblocks took seven years to reach 20 banks and one additional year to reach 150 banks on its platform.
▶ Bank teams, resilience, and the commercial case
Igor says bank teams need people who understand both protocol technology and regulation, can work through governance, and are willing to participate in risk committee meetings. Goldi cites a Capgemini World Payments Report figure: 60% of corporate treasury leaders would be open to stablecoin solutions from non-banks. He also refers to the 2023 banking crisis, including Silicon Valley Bank, Signature, and Silvergate, while asking about resilience. Igor says banks should explore capabilities before they are needed: account structures should exist, controls should be tested, partners vetted, regulators should understand the work, and real flows should be run with counterparties so a client request becomes a timeline question rather than a feasibility study. Asked how to persuade skeptical bankers, he says most stablecoin payment flows are business-to-business, including service fees, payroll, and supplier payments, and characterize these as commercial banking activity. He suggests asking whether clients complain about settlement times, hold idle cash because it cannot move fast enough, or want payments to clear on weekends; when the hosts answer yes to all, he says the bank is already in the business and must choose the use case and rail.
▶ Stablecoins as everyday infrastructure and closing
Asked whether stablecoins will remain a story 20 years from now, Igor says they are real and predicts the story will become boring: in his opinion, people will not talk about stablecoins any more than they talk about routine payment files today. The hosts compare this to infrastructure such as the internet and an ISO 2022 upgrade, which most corporate users do not discuss in everyday life. Igor says tokenized value will simply settle in the background, with banks safeguarding reserves, managing risk, and ensuring money is available when needed. The hosts close the interview and give contact details; Simon also promotes the podcast and Tempo.
Full transcript
[0:00] And nobody can say exactly where the money movement is happening right now. So stable coin settlement component helps to solve that. It gives you that near realtime movement knowing value of the time of transaction. And a lot of our clients they really don't care that it's a [music] stable coin. They care that the money arrives today and [music] they want to know the cost of it in real time. Welcome to Tokenized, the show focused on stable coins and the institutional adoption of tokenized real
[0:31] world assets. My name is Simon Taylor, your host, author [music] of Fent Brain Food, and head of market dev at Tempo. And I'm joined as always by Ryan Goldenstein, aka Goldie, aka the VP of all of the goodness that is Fireblocks. How you doing, Ryan? >> I'm great. I'm great. You won't believe it, Simon. They promoted me to be a chief payments officer now. So, uh, >> are you a chief payments and network officer? I didn't catch that in the notes. >> I'm telling I'm telling you they're like giving titles to everyone these days. >> Ah well um long overdue because we've
[1:02] been telling lots of stories about lots of your um well lots of your clients, lots of your friends in the industry. You are the originator of the term stable coin sandwich and for that alone uh you deserve the upgrade. Um but but we're not alone today. We are joined by a phenomenal guest on stable coin stories. This is Eigor Istrtov who leads digital assets products at Fifth Third Bank with a focus on New Line the embedded banking business. Eagle, how you doing sir? >> I'm good. Hi everyone. >> Excited to have you on because uh Fifth
[1:32] Third and New Line super interesting business. But before we jump in uh Goldie, why don't you just remind everybody what stable coin stories is about? Yeah. Well, this is not just an ever podcast where we take uh five bits of items and we bring famous people from famous schemes and and we interview them. No, I'm kidding, Simon. That podcast is amazing. This is actually a spin-off of that where we uh want to tell the stories behind what's happening because the world is filled now with stable coins and we'll talk to Eigor, the world is getting filler and filler
[2:02] with tokenized deposits, but there's there's issuers, there's all the news cases, people are waking up to this new reality of stable coins. We want to tell the story behind the coin. And again, we've been doing this for a while. We've talked to remittance companies, to PSPs. We we've also talked to to banks in the past. But today uh well, we're going to talk to Eigor. Igor is from Fifth Third, which is again one of the top 10 banks uh in the US. They have almost 300 billion dollar in uh in assets, more
[2:33] than 240 billion in deposits. They have more than 1,500 branches across the US, Simon. Right. So, there's no way you're going to get coffee without seeing a fifth. Uh, and what's most interesting is they're processing more than 18 trillion in payments. And when this bank goes into stable coins, we want to hear why. We want to hear the story. We want to uncover this. Eigor, I hope it will be fun for you as it is for us. >> Indeed. So before we jump in with ego, I just got to remind uh viewers and listeners that views and opinions of our
[3:03] contributors today are their own and might not reflect those of companies they represent. Please don't take anything we say as tax, legal, or financial advice. Please always do your own research. And a reminder that of course this podcast is made possible by Fireblocks and Visa. Eigor, let's let's kick it off because there's a lot we want to ask you basically. And again, thank you for coming in. I know that you know the you're you're now a banker, right? I I also brought my suit. I'm not wearing it obviously, but just, you know, for people on video to know that
[3:33] there is one. Uh but you've been on and off in the digital asset space, but really you've been around this for a decade, right? Okay. So, you've been to banks, you've been to FinTech, you were a product lead at JP Morgan, uh, at the blockchain team, you were head of crypto business at Sofi. You tried to avoid banks, uh, sorry, to avoid crypto sometimes, but you also went into digital asset company that's now, you know, running Canton across the world. Why did you go like I guess what brought you into this space and what what
[4:04] happened there? Like, did were your parents pissed off every time you went to a crypto company? you had to go back to a bank, but then crypto picked up again. So, you went back to a crypto to digital asset company and you ended up settled on probably one of the largest banks in the world now doing digital assets. Tell us how you got here. What's keeping you here? >> So, let's start with with that. That my parents don't really understand what I do. Um, but honestly what's in the focus is using tech to strip friction out of payments, lowering costs, improving the customer experience, and solving
[4:34] problems the industry has lived with for decades. And look, at JP Morgan, I was on the blockchain side of wholesale payments. We started as a small team figuring out the strategy, piloting the tech, and eventually building it into a full product suite for clients. And at Sulfi, I got the consumer view. People wanted instant funding and a clean experience and they wanted it now, not tomorrow. Um, so I've seen both ends of it, settlement and money movement at
[5:06] global scale all the way down to what one person feels when they hit send button. And that's what keeps me here. when tech actually fix something, a client feels a payment that arise faster, a lower fee, and less uncertainty overall. And it makes a ton of sense that I think that journey is one that would confuse people because uh back into uh banking and into crypto, trying to make sense of it all has been a a huge uh difficult thing that I've
[5:38] had my whole existence. I don't think my mom knows what I do either. So, how how are you making sense of it now for your um your colleagues in Fifth Third and New Line? Like what is it you actually do? Um and what is it that your company's trying to do? >> I lead digital asset product partnership and regulatory engagement at Fifer. New line is where the digital asset innovation actually happens. Um, New Line is our API first embedded finance platform that lets enterprises launch
[6:09] payments, card, and deposit products directly with Fifth Third. It's built like a fintech but on top of a top 10 bank balance sheet. And that is the whole point. If you are a stable coin issuer or an exchange, you shouldn't have to choose between a good APIs and a real bank today. You know, I think that's so fascinating because uh New Line is the story that people don't know about, right? Like it's there's this whole other layer above the banking tech stack. Whereas I
[6:39] think a lot of banks have tried to build APIs inside their organization. You built a new company that's like buy fifth, but it has its own tech stack that that faces out to the market. So I'm guessing that fits in quite nicely with a lot of what you've been doing with embedded banking and other things. But um Goldie, we like to talk about stablecoin stories, don't we? Well, we do. I mean, talk stable coin to me, you know, that's that's our motto. That's what I have on my car. So, so Eigor, I guess the follow-up question to all of this is that fifth leadership called
[7:10] stable coins, you know, the ultimate instant payment. And as you said, that was one of the main problems that, you know, you as as a product person and all these uh banks were facing as well, right? But when do you think that that shift h happened in the minds of you know leadership of banks from this is another periphery this is another you know corporate issued money to something we actually want to adopt. >> I think the conversation really changed
[7:41] over the last few years. Um, and it changed when client demand stopped being about crypto exposure and started being about operational efficiency. Today, clients are asking why payments take days to settle, why they need to hold cash in multiple currencies, and why money cannot move 24/7. And that is what driving interest in stable coins. The demand isn't coming from crypto companies. It's coming from
[8:11] commercial clients outside of the crypto space looking for faster payments, lower cost, and better cash management. I just want to pick on the numbers that you shared about the banks because >> yeah, >> I don't want to wave the flag, but uh the the scale of the bank is very relevant variable here. Put it in the context of the market. Um the entire stable coin supply is about what like you can argue with me but based on the
[8:41] latest reports that I've seen is about 300 billions. Our commercial payments volume along as many multiples of the entire stable coin economy. So when we are looking into that space it has to fit inside the same risk compliance operational framework that we've built for other assets and uh there is no side experiment at that volume size. But but this is where skeptics ask and I have to ask as well and and I don't know if there's a good answer to this like okay
[9:11] people want faster payments it doesn't have to be a stable coin maybe needs to be uh you know a combination of other technologies maybe a zelbased solution or some other you know payments creator uh a faster swift uh or a token as deposit that's a different like why do you think right now we are positively and obviously I'm happy about this. I've been trying to push for this for a decade. But like why do you think there's disagreement right now with this technology? Is it because it's the the
[9:43] regulation is finally here? Is it something else? >> Yeah, I think that I think there are two things that converged. Um that there is a real pain point on the client side and the regulatory clarity. On the client side, let's say we use crossboard as an example. So we see real settlement delays and valuation uncertainty between the initiation and lending of the payment. On the regulatory side, the clarity matters and uh we've seen that OC interpretive OC unlocked interpretive
[10:16] letters u confirming that national banks can provide crypto assets uh custody and related banking services. And the Ingenious act established the federal framework for payments for stable coins and the combination of both moved this from watch it to do it. And banks don't move on ambiguity. Uh we've seen that perimeter is defined right and it's cleared. So now we can operate inside of it. >> Yeah, the perimeter got a lot clearer
[10:46] very soon. Although we didn't get the clarity act, I think for stable coins it's it's very much there. And I think it's interesting that uh for fifth third I think digital assets started as a customer segment and those customers were looking for certain things from you and maybe they wanted that 24/7 crossber and you follow your customer to them to some extent but what does new line actually do today with those customers like what products do you offer? What can somebody do when they come to you
[11:16] that they couldn't do with somebody else as easily? >> Totally. Um, if you think about the actual account structure and the business for a digital asset company, it's way less exotic than people expect. And that's kind of the whole point. Um, through our embedded banking platform, Uline, uh, you end up with four buckets. Um, operating account for the company's own cash, um, payrolls, vendors, it's completely walled off from customer
[11:46] funds. Uh second one is settlement accounts for fiat settlement with exchanges, liquidity providers and payment partners which what gives you a clear path for reconciliation with high volumes. Uh third one is reserve accounts holding the fiat behind issuance circulation redemption with real transparency and control movement between reserve and settlement. And the fourth one, and that's the most interesting one, an FBO account or
[12:18] custodial account. It's where the eligible customers fiat sits separately from company's cash with records down to the customer level. And as a whole, Simon, none of that is new. It's just plumbing that has to be done right before anything interesting happens on top of it. But you're saying plumbing and this this is interesting uh because you know we're building all this plumbing together. Uh and again I I I salute
[12:48] every bank that steps into digital assets but definitely a bank that has I would say I'll just say I'll say like a lot to lose right like fifth bank that's stepping into this. But aren't stable coins uh thought of as a uh you know deposit risk, right? Depositly risk in a way, right? Like how are you guys thinking about this? Is this is this a hedge? Is this uh thinking you know let's not mind oursel with deposit risks like let's bring the best value of a
[13:18] product of money movement to our clients. Where does the bank sit with those thoughts? Like it is it is a it is a risk and opportunity at the same time. It uh helps us to reframe reserves as a capital market questions not just operational one. Uh it helps us to reserve asset sides of the market and uh we see that it's real and it's growing and the deposits back and has to sit somewhere with proper segregation control and reporting and that's the banking function and that's what we
[13:48] should do and that's what we want to do today. >> Yeah. If you back the stable coins they're not flying from you. You are the deposit holder of those stable coins. And by leaning into stable coin as a payment method, you have a right to win those balances from those from those very large and growing issuers who need somewhere to put those deposits. And and I think that for so long, Eagle, people have missed um that payments is the probably the growth engine for most of the banks that are performing uh really
[14:19] really well, especially on the corporate side. But you talked a little bit about that crossber payments as as a use case there. I'm interested in like where stable coins fit into that picture and who for like is is a midsized business in Ohio using stable coins for cross border because they're a manufacturer or is this much more um you know just the digital asset industry and you're serving them as a big client base. It's both at the same time Simon like if you think about uh your example about
[14:49] midsize manufacturing high they send uh payments to suppliers in Asia let's say Thailand Thailand is a big corridor for the crossber payments and uh they face a lot of friction today they send a wire it moves through corresponding banks it's uh somewhere in the chain face a cut off time or a weekend and then days later they get the confirmation receipt Maybe and that also comes with the FX movement that came out of on top with
[15:20] uncertainty about the fees how you charge on the FX side and nobody can say exactly where the money movement is happening right now. Uh so stable coin settlement component uh helps to solve that. It gives you that near realtime movement, knowing value of the time of transaction and real traceability where you can see how payment uh is moving and settling in real time. And I think in that example,
[15:51] a lot of our clients, they really don't care that it's a stable coin. um they care that the money uh arrives today and they want to know the cost of it in real time. So they want to see the real value behind the technology that we use at the bank. >> Yeah. And and you said about technology. I I was you know I was reading your LinkedIn uh you know prior to to you joining us and and and you said uh most debates in crypto focus on technology.
[16:21] The harder question is trust. For the last decade, crypto has asked, can we bank without banks? The next decade may be spent answering what does banking look like in a world of digital asset? So, >> should I read between the lines saying, you know, everyone was asking 10 years ago, uh, like 10 years from now, who's going to be the JP Morgan of crypto? And I was sort of telling everyone, guys, it might be JP Morgan, you know, but are you actually saying we're not going to get rid of of banks, especially not, you
[16:53] know, the largest of ones because we're adopting this and now we need to learn how. What what do you mean by those statements? >> Yeah, I think look, the technology part is not the hardest one. And then uh everything around it is um you need to figure out compliance and section screening for onchain counterparties. You need to build the liquidity management when the rail runs 247 and your funding windows don't. Reconciliation and reporting that uh need to satisfy both clients, treasury
[17:23] and your regulators. And client readiness. Um this is a good example. Uh most treasury teams that we're talking today are not set up to hold or manage a digital asset. It's simply the fact. Um so the bank has to absorb that complexity. The last one is also the governance that is also brings the complexity into that uh equation. Um every one of those programs goes through the same risk legal compliance audit reviews as any other product of the bank. Yes, it is slower um but uh at the
[17:56] bank right but it's also the reason a client would choose a bank for this in the first place and that's why they come to us. So you you mentioned like basically a lot of these are the hard parts that you need to do as a financial institution and and I guess you know it sort of relates to what you said before. You said the the value of the um of payments you move is by a factor a few factors probably bigger than the entire
[18:26] market cap of stable coins today. So, so when you bring this into your ecosystem and again, let's say you turn on stables and you want to move the same 18 trillion, is are those the difficult parts that you just mentioned that you need to turn on into a bank? What what's the hardest part when you're bringing this? >> Yeah, I think the hardest part it's figuring out how to operate it at the at where the client is. So we need to provide the product support around the clock and then we need to provide the
[18:57] staffing around the clock and we need to make sure that all the controls are at the same level because when you bring the new rail that operates differently compared to your traditional banking uh rails you need to figure out the everything around it to make sure that it all works in sync and it complements other rails that you already offer today for the client. Speaking of those other rails though, like we have real-time payments, we have same day aac, we have fed now. We probably got almost too many
[19:28] rails. Um, and so one, can you realistically operate these the same way or there are some nuances here? Like cuz it's it is slightly different technology I think versus ISO messages. But but two like are these complimentary? Is it like do we or does like stable coins just gradually start to eat volume from those like what was your hypothesis on on where these things fit together? >> So I just I just want to say that I don't think that we will ever have too
[19:59] many rails in payments. I I'll put it this way but to answer your question it is complimentary and the whole tension that uh is like kind of speculated right now is really overstated. Um domestically real-time payments and fed now are excellent. They're final, they're instant, they're well understood. Um where stable coins are generally differentiated is crossber payments, multicurrency accounts. Uh where correspondent banking dominates
[20:29] this stage. I would say the right framing is that stable coins are another rail in the portfolio. And a lot of times, not always the case, but the client shouldn't have to choose. The bank should route to whatever rail fits the payment. Rail agnostic money movement with the bank handling the orchestration. That is the perfect state for a lot of treasury teams today. >> Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. Like I I don't want to be thinking of payment rails. I want to be thinking of I need the money to get to that person, that
[20:59] business ASAP or I just want to get paid. Um and and interesting to see that that development. Um, look, I'm just going to take a quick pause here while we hear from our sponsors. And of course, this podcast is sponsored by our friends at Fireblocks. Tokenized is also sponsored by Fireblocks. Fireblocks is the stablecoin infrastructure of choice for global businesses from Visa to World Pay to Bridge to Revolute. With over a hundred billion dollars in monthly stable coin volume, Fireblocks powers stable coin strategies at scale with
[21:31] infrastructure that enables PSPs, fintexs, remitters, and banks to issue, move, hold, and manage stable coins. It's all done securely at scale with secure built-in compliance. With Fireblocks, you get complete control to build your own stable coin orchestration layer, create payment accounts, manage liquidity, and access on and off ramps in over 60 currencies. Makes it easier for you to build and scale and expand
[22:01] your business globally. Learn more at fireblocks.com. >> Thank you. And uh look, I mean, you mentioned actually something interesting. There's a lot of companies in this space, Eagor, that are trying to solve the Treasury management problem and they're coming into the space saying, uh, you know, there's there's fiat treasury now. We're we're bringing all these companies, whether they are remittance companies or payment companies, we're we're introducing them
[22:32] to a world of digital asset treasury, and now they need to source USDC for this here and USDT in this continent. And and what you're saying maybe is like okay it's great that these companies are are you know creating startups and getting funded and creating this middle layer but maybe over time it will be the banks who will provide that to their clients and they won't be needing and this middle layer because it's translating something today but might not be needed in the future.
[23:02] >> Yeah. I mean it's it's it's true on both sides right like if you think about the middle layer and the companies playing in this space um it helps us to understand uh the space if stable coins grow and banks are not a part of it deposits migrate and banks lose the relationship that's just the fact reserves have to sit somewhere redemptions have to clear somewhere and issuers need to operate and settle um and that is a banking business a fee and deposit opportunity not just uh like a
[23:33] simple threat. Uh the market that concentrated needs more regulated banking capacity, not less. The the risk is just not in the the new product or the stable coin space and the Fred is not just coming from other players in the game trying to provide the middle. It's just about bank sitting outside of that opportunity without taking the action. Yeah, I think banks being outside the opportunity was something you sort of covered earlier on and we know your CEOs looks at stable coins as a green field opportunity. You see
[24:03] digital assets as a client space. We talked about you know deposit flight and you said no actually this is something we're bringing in. So how do you think about partnerships with the digital asset industry whilst also maintaining the network you need frankly of other financial institutions because you're you're in some consortia as well you know sort of uh with TCH and many many others is that an intentional part of your strategy here that you're sort of a bridge between these worlds and how are you thinking about partnerships on both sides? Yeah, I think uh partnerships are
[24:35] great and then we are there to provide the support and then the subject matter expertise and share the vision of what banks actually need in the tokenized deposit space and uh stable coins. But when you look into the partnerships, no banks build this alone, never. And no fintech does it either. um that the ecosystem works today as it works because the pieces are specialized and uh we see issuers that are doing it the
[25:06] best. We see custody providers that have done it for a decade at this point at the institutional level and we see infrastructure providers on and off providers processors and uh we see that the data layer is coming up as increasingly important one too. Our role is the regulated fiat foundation for all of them and the orchestration around it. So the orchestration is accounts rails controls reporting partners bring the
[25:37] onchain capabilities and then we do what we do the best because the clients want all of those pieces feel like the same experience one experience and the integration help us to provide that seamless experience to the clients and then it's less visible to do that integration with partners but it's actually most of the work that we do behind the scenes >> and I I have to say I I love hearing this uh from you obviously but because you know now this is the the the song
[26:09] that a lot of banks are singing and it's it's amazing but it was such a tough journey and again you're here for a decade you know this but you know even for Fireblocks it took us took us seven years to get to 20 banks and another year to get to 150 banks running on Fireblocks right so it's it's very different in recent times And uh and again a lot of banks are trying to make this leap and you said so yourself right you you talked about how banks need to leap uh rather than you know seed
[26:40] leadership to the non-banking sector right uh where a lot of these fintexs are in a way taking advantage of of this technology because they can you know maybe do some regulatory arbitrage or maybe they can launch features faster globally or whatnot. But what does it mean for you when you build a team today in a bank and you need to compete and you need to lead and when you're building that team and when you're thinking about those products like are
[27:10] you thinking hey maybe we should think about non-custodial embedded wallets maybe we should think about DeFi trading with hyperlquid right how can how constrained can you be and how are you thinking when you're building those teams today >> yeah um so first I just want to say that I agree with you Goldie like I've seen how this place is evolved and then I started to work with infrastructure providers years ago when nobody had a real institutional grade offering in that space and then we had to defy like
[27:41] what rules do we need to support the institutional use cases and Fireblocks was there along the way and then we've seen how you became the essential infrastructure provider that piping the industry and that is great so we grew up together like through this uh crypto winters and different ups and downs of >> um and on to answer your question what does that mean and uh to to build a team today I think you need to hire people
[28:11] who are bilingual and what do I mean by that people who understand both the protocol layer and the regulatory layer and don't fleech it either the failure mode on one side is a team that can build anything but cannot get it approved. And on another side, it's the team that can navigate governance but doesn't know what what is technically possible. You need both in the same room. And the truth is you need people,
[28:42] you need product people willing to sit in risk committee meetings and that is the actual problem. A lot of times [laughter] >> I never met one of those, but yeah, if you find them, it's a unicorn. Hold on to those. Yeah, they they exist and they're saints and yeah, you got to hold on to them. Especially somebody who's come from startup land but can work in a big bank or vice versa. Those bilingual sort of characters. I I used to call them day walkers based on the movie Blade. You know, the vampires that can walk in the day. It's it's a similar idea. Um, I I
[29:12] saw a killer stat in the Capgeemini world payments report that dropped just today because I'm that much of a payments nerd that apparently 60% of corporate treasury leaders would be open to taking stable coin solutions from non-banks which says to me again your point about don't seed that territory is going to be really really crucial. And of course um you know zooming back out to um to 2023 we had the uh banking crisis. We had Silicon Valley Bank Circle was caught up
[29:42] in that. U we had Signature and Silvergate but you guys did quite well out of that situation or a very different capitalized bank. So, how do you think about building that operational resilience that you were sort of alluding to when talking about the infrastructure here to be able to last through the next crypto winter and the next liquidity crisis? >> Yeah, I think same playbook explore the capabilities before you need it. So, when the moment
[30:13] arrives, you are executing rather than start designing it. um ready for a bank of our size doesn't mean we are announcing everything every day. It means the account structure exists. The the controls are tested. The partners are vetted. The regulators understand what we are doing and why. And we've run real volume through real flows with real counterparties. Um and when the client comes with the real use case, uh the
[30:44] answer is more about the timeline, not just the physibility study that we need to complete and assess that. And then we've built all of the pieces that we need to support that. um on the new life side to date. >> I remember being uh at a bank in 2016 uh having to just start some of this work and sometimes it takes a very long time to get this stuff to production and to get those those results going and it's you know now here we are a decade later and you got banks like Fifth Third and New Line really leaning into it. But
[31:16] that's not every bank right now. So if you have to make a case to a skeptical banker who thinks this is that's just the crypto stuff, you know, this isn't really a commercial banking story, what do you say to your colleagues and your peers? >> Yeah, look, I mean, you you start with the real volume and then you start with the volume and understand where it sits. most stable coin payment flows is a businessto business payment today. Um including service fees, payroll, supply payment and that is not a trading
[31:48] ledger. That is a commercial banking book. It's just being written somewhere other than a bank. And I would ask a few questions to a skeptical banker. Um do your clients complain about settlement times? Do they park idle cash because they cannot move it fast enough? Do they want payments to clear on a Saturday or Sunday? If if the answer is yes, >> yes to all. Yes to all. >> Yes. Yeah. So you are already in the
[32:18] business. You just haven't picked the use case and the rail, then that is a banking history that is pretty clear today. like you you have to control the relationship and the settlement settlement layer in the back and it's it's not even an argument in the crypto space. It's just the franchise argument at their point. >> Look, I mean uh you're you're saying exactly what I'm so happy that Eigor that you find yourself at fifth honestly. Uh and again I know
[32:48] you had you've been in the space for a decade uh in various roles but I uh honestly just genuinely happy that you're one of the people who are leading this in one of the 10th largest banks in the US. Uh which and unfortunately I have to ask you the final question that we ask all of our guests. um 20 years from now, Eigor, stable coins, everything we've doing here, everything we've been talking about, are they just another story, just another, you know,
[33:18] something to tell uh our kids about what we played with before something else came or are they a fact? >> I like NFTs. Kind of like my hair, right? Like, is it is it a story or is it real? >> Yeah. Well, let's put me on record and then circle back 20 years after and then see where it is. Um I I think it's it's a it's a it's a real story. It's a fact. And um uh I think it's a boring one. Uh that which is probably the best outcome. In 20 years, nobody will talk about
[33:50] stable coins in my opinion. The same way nobody talks about sending an AC file today. Um or says, >> well, I do, but I get your point, right? Like [laughter] people don't think about uh the ISO 2022 upgrade over breakfast very often. Um there's only a small subset of us that do. Most corporates don't. >> Most corporates don't. That's true. Um I I I say like another example like nobody says I looked it up on the internet at the general speaking like right. We just like point straight to the point. The
[34:21] internet is not a thing that we use on the daily basis when we refer to these specific things that we found online. I was like it it will be it it will simply be how money moves. tokenized value settled in the background with banks doing what they've done best, safeguarding reserves, managing risks, ensuring money is there when it's needed, and the story is how we get there from here to there. And that is just the fact
[34:52] on one point we'll we'll we'll be there. >> All right, Eagle. Well, that is a great point to leave it on and we'll come back in 20 years time precisely. Um, and if we're all still alive, God willing, uh, then we we'll be we'll be in we'll be in good shape. Uh, look, thanks everybody who's watched and listened. Um, I really appreciate it. Ego, if um, people want to find out more about, uh, what you're doing at New Line and Fifth Third, where do they go to find out more about what you guys offer? >> Uh, they can reach out to me on LinkedIn
[35:23] directly or they can reach out to me via email. It's uh essentially my first name, dot my last name at 53.com. >> Ah 53 53. There it is. Uh Goldie, how about you? >> Uh you can find me at Rang Goldie on LinkedIn or Rangold on X or if you go on IRC or have a BBS server, you can find me at Rang Goldie Wars downloads.com. >> Mhm. I love that. Make a note of it people. BBM's Blackberry Messenger. What a throwback. Uh, you'll find me at
[35:53] sytail on all of the socials, screaming into the void at brainfood.xyz and of course at tempo.xyz where we're just about to cook. It's getting very exciting out there, folks. Stay locked to this podcast for more stable coin stories. You can do that by subscribing, uh, sharing, leaving us a review, liking if you are using YouTube. Thank you very much and we'll catch you next time. >> [music]
[36:24] >> Hey, [music]
[0:31] world assets. My name is Simon Taylor, your host, author [music] of Fent Brain Food, and head of market dev at Tempo. And I'm joined as always by Ryan Goldenstein, aka Goldie, aka the VP of all of the goodness that is Fireblocks. How you doing, Ryan? >> I'm great. I'm great. You won't believe it, Simon. They promoted me to be a chief payments officer now. So, uh, >> are you a chief payments and network officer? I didn't catch that in the notes. >> I'm telling I'm telling you they're like giving titles to everyone these days. >> Ah well um long overdue because we've
[1:02] been telling lots of stories about lots of your um well lots of your clients, lots of your friends in the industry. You are the originator of the term stable coin sandwich and for that alone uh you deserve the upgrade. Um but but we're not alone today. We are joined by a phenomenal guest on stable coin stories. This is Eigor Istrtov who leads digital assets products at Fifth Third Bank with a focus on New Line the embedded banking business. Eagle, how you doing sir? >> I'm good. Hi everyone. >> Excited to have you on because uh Fifth
[1:32] Third and New Line super interesting business. But before we jump in uh Goldie, why don't you just remind everybody what stable coin stories is about? Yeah. Well, this is not just an ever podcast where we take uh five bits of items and we bring famous people from famous schemes and and we interview them. No, I'm kidding, Simon. That podcast is amazing. This is actually a spin-off of that where we uh want to tell the stories behind what's happening because the world is filled now with stable coins and we'll talk to Eigor, the world is getting filler and filler
[2:02] with tokenized deposits, but there's there's issuers, there's all the news cases, people are waking up to this new reality of stable coins. We want to tell the story behind the coin. And again, we've been doing this for a while. We've talked to remittance companies, to PSPs. We we've also talked to to banks in the past. But today uh well, we're going to talk to Eigor. Igor is from Fifth Third, which is again one of the top 10 banks uh in the US. They have almost 300 billion dollar in uh in assets, more
[2:33] than 240 billion in deposits. They have more than 1,500 branches across the US, Simon. Right. So, there's no way you're going to get coffee without seeing a fifth. Uh, and what's most interesting is they're processing more than 18 trillion in payments. And when this bank goes into stable coins, we want to hear why. We want to hear the story. We want to uncover this. Eigor, I hope it will be fun for you as it is for us. >> Indeed. So before we jump in with ego, I just got to remind uh viewers and listeners that views and opinions of our
[3:03] contributors today are their own and might not reflect those of companies they represent. Please don't take anything we say as tax, legal, or financial advice. Please always do your own research. And a reminder that of course this podcast is made possible by Fireblocks and Visa. Eigor, let's let's kick it off because there's a lot we want to ask you basically. And again, thank you for coming in. I know that you know the you're you're now a banker, right? I I also brought my suit. I'm not wearing it obviously, but just, you know, for people on video to know that
[3:33] there is one. Uh but you've been on and off in the digital asset space, but really you've been around this for a decade, right? Okay. So, you've been to banks, you've been to FinTech, you were a product lead at JP Morgan, uh, at the blockchain team, you were head of crypto business at Sofi. You tried to avoid banks, uh, sorry, to avoid crypto sometimes, but you also went into digital asset company that's now, you know, running Canton across the world. Why did you go like I guess what brought you into this space and what what
[4:04] happened there? Like, did were your parents pissed off every time you went to a crypto company? you had to go back to a bank, but then crypto picked up again. So, you went back to a crypto to digital asset company and you ended up settled on probably one of the largest banks in the world now doing digital assets. Tell us how you got here. What's keeping you here? >> So, let's start with with that. That my parents don't really understand what I do. Um, but honestly what's in the focus is using tech to strip friction out of payments, lowering costs, improving the customer experience, and solving
[4:34] problems the industry has lived with for decades. And look, at JP Morgan, I was on the blockchain side of wholesale payments. We started as a small team figuring out the strategy, piloting the tech, and eventually building it into a full product suite for clients. And at Sulfi, I got the consumer view. People wanted instant funding and a clean experience and they wanted it now, not tomorrow. Um, so I've seen both ends of it, settlement and money movement at
[5:06] global scale all the way down to what one person feels when they hit send button. And that's what keeps me here. when tech actually fix something, a client feels a payment that arise faster, a lower fee, and less uncertainty overall. And it makes a ton of sense that I think that journey is one that would confuse people because uh back into uh banking and into crypto, trying to make sense of it all has been a a huge uh difficult thing that I've
[5:38] had my whole existence. I don't think my mom knows what I do either. So, how how are you making sense of it now for your um your colleagues in Fifth Third and New Line? Like what is it you actually do? Um and what is it that your company's trying to do? >> I lead digital asset product partnership and regulatory engagement at Fifer. New line is where the digital asset innovation actually happens. Um, New Line is our API first embedded finance platform that lets enterprises launch
[6:09] payments, card, and deposit products directly with Fifth Third. It's built like a fintech but on top of a top 10 bank balance sheet. And that is the whole point. If you are a stable coin issuer or an exchange, you shouldn't have to choose between a good APIs and a real bank today. You know, I think that's so fascinating because uh New Line is the story that people don't know about, right? Like it's there's this whole other layer above the banking tech stack. Whereas I
[6:39] think a lot of banks have tried to build APIs inside their organization. You built a new company that's like buy fifth, but it has its own tech stack that that faces out to the market. So I'm guessing that fits in quite nicely with a lot of what you've been doing with embedded banking and other things. But um Goldie, we like to talk about stablecoin stories, don't we? Well, we do. I mean, talk stable coin to me, you know, that's that's our motto. That's what I have on my car. So, so Eigor, I guess the follow-up question to all of this is that fifth leadership called
[7:10] stable coins, you know, the ultimate instant payment. And as you said, that was one of the main problems that, you know, you as as a product person and all these uh banks were facing as well, right? But when do you think that that shift h happened in the minds of you know leadership of banks from this is another periphery this is another you know corporate issued money to something we actually want to adopt. >> I think the conversation really changed
[7:41] over the last few years. Um, and it changed when client demand stopped being about crypto exposure and started being about operational efficiency. Today, clients are asking why payments take days to settle, why they need to hold cash in multiple currencies, and why money cannot move 24/7. And that is what driving interest in stable coins. The demand isn't coming from crypto companies. It's coming from
[8:11] commercial clients outside of the crypto space looking for faster payments, lower cost, and better cash management. I just want to pick on the numbers that you shared about the banks because >> yeah, >> I don't want to wave the flag, but uh the the scale of the bank is very relevant variable here. Put it in the context of the market. Um the entire stable coin supply is about what like you can argue with me but based on the
[8:41] latest reports that I've seen is about 300 billions. Our commercial payments volume along as many multiples of the entire stable coin economy. So when we are looking into that space it has to fit inside the same risk compliance operational framework that we've built for other assets and uh there is no side experiment at that volume size. But but this is where skeptics ask and I have to ask as well and and I don't know if there's a good answer to this like okay
[9:11] people want faster payments it doesn't have to be a stable coin maybe needs to be uh you know a combination of other technologies maybe a zelbased solution or some other you know payments creator uh a faster swift uh or a token as deposit that's a different like why do you think right now we are positively and obviously I'm happy about this. I've been trying to push for this for a decade. But like why do you think there's disagreement right now with this technology? Is it because it's the the
[9:43] regulation is finally here? Is it something else? >> Yeah, I think that I think there are two things that converged. Um that there is a real pain point on the client side and the regulatory clarity. On the client side, let's say we use crossboard as an example. So we see real settlement delays and valuation uncertainty between the initiation and lending of the payment. On the regulatory side, the clarity matters and uh we've seen that OC interpretive OC unlocked interpretive
[10:16] letters u confirming that national banks can provide crypto assets uh custody and related banking services. And the Ingenious act established the federal framework for payments for stable coins and the combination of both moved this from watch it to do it. And banks don't move on ambiguity. Uh we've seen that perimeter is defined right and it's cleared. So now we can operate inside of it. >> Yeah, the perimeter got a lot clearer
[10:46] very soon. Although we didn't get the clarity act, I think for stable coins it's it's very much there. And I think it's interesting that uh for fifth third I think digital assets started as a customer segment and those customers were looking for certain things from you and maybe they wanted that 24/7 crossber and you follow your customer to them to some extent but what does new line actually do today with those customers like what products do you offer? What can somebody do when they come to you
[11:16] that they couldn't do with somebody else as easily? >> Totally. Um, if you think about the actual account structure and the business for a digital asset company, it's way less exotic than people expect. And that's kind of the whole point. Um, through our embedded banking platform, Uline, uh, you end up with four buckets. Um, operating account for the company's own cash, um, payrolls, vendors, it's completely walled off from customer
[11:46] funds. Uh second one is settlement accounts for fiat settlement with exchanges, liquidity providers and payment partners which what gives you a clear path for reconciliation with high volumes. Uh third one is reserve accounts holding the fiat behind issuance circulation redemption with real transparency and control movement between reserve and settlement. And the fourth one, and that's the most interesting one, an FBO account or
[12:18] custodial account. It's where the eligible customers fiat sits separately from company's cash with records down to the customer level. And as a whole, Simon, none of that is new. It's just plumbing that has to be done right before anything interesting happens on top of it. But you're saying plumbing and this this is interesting uh because you know we're building all this plumbing together. Uh and again I I I salute
[12:48] every bank that steps into digital assets but definitely a bank that has I would say I'll just say I'll say like a lot to lose right like fifth bank that's stepping into this. But aren't stable coins uh thought of as a uh you know deposit risk, right? Depositly risk in a way, right? Like how are you guys thinking about this? Is this is this a hedge? Is this uh thinking you know let's not mind oursel with deposit risks like let's bring the best value of a
[13:18] product of money movement to our clients. Where does the bank sit with those thoughts? Like it is it is a it is a risk and opportunity at the same time. It uh helps us to reframe reserves as a capital market questions not just operational one. Uh it helps us to reserve asset sides of the market and uh we see that it's real and it's growing and the deposits back and has to sit somewhere with proper segregation control and reporting and that's the banking function and that's what we
[13:48] should do and that's what we want to do today. >> Yeah. If you back the stable coins they're not flying from you. You are the deposit holder of those stable coins. And by leaning into stable coin as a payment method, you have a right to win those balances from those from those very large and growing issuers who need somewhere to put those deposits. And and I think that for so long, Eagle, people have missed um that payments is the probably the growth engine for most of the banks that are performing uh really
[14:19] really well, especially on the corporate side. But you talked a little bit about that crossber payments as as a use case there. I'm interested in like where stable coins fit into that picture and who for like is is a midsized business in Ohio using stable coins for cross border because they're a manufacturer or is this much more um you know just the digital asset industry and you're serving them as a big client base. It's both at the same time Simon like if you think about uh your example about
[14:49] midsize manufacturing high they send uh payments to suppliers in Asia let's say Thailand Thailand is a big corridor for the crossber payments and uh they face a lot of friction today they send a wire it moves through corresponding banks it's uh somewhere in the chain face a cut off time or a weekend and then days later they get the confirmation receipt Maybe and that also comes with the FX movement that came out of on top with
[15:20] uncertainty about the fees how you charge on the FX side and nobody can say exactly where the money movement is happening right now. Uh so stable coin settlement component uh helps to solve that. It gives you that near realtime movement, knowing value of the time of transaction and real traceability where you can see how payment uh is moving and settling in real time. And I think in that example,
[15:51] a lot of our clients, they really don't care that it's a stable coin. um they care that the money uh arrives today and they want to know the cost of it in real time. So they want to see the real value behind the technology that we use at the bank. >> Yeah. And and you said about technology. I I was you know I was reading your LinkedIn uh you know prior to to you joining us and and and you said uh most debates in crypto focus on technology.
[16:21] The harder question is trust. For the last decade, crypto has asked, can we bank without banks? The next decade may be spent answering what does banking look like in a world of digital asset? So, >> should I read between the lines saying, you know, everyone was asking 10 years ago, uh, like 10 years from now, who's going to be the JP Morgan of crypto? And I was sort of telling everyone, guys, it might be JP Morgan, you know, but are you actually saying we're not going to get rid of of banks, especially not, you
[16:53] know, the largest of ones because we're adopting this and now we need to learn how. What what do you mean by those statements? >> Yeah, I think look, the technology part is not the hardest one. And then uh everything around it is um you need to figure out compliance and section screening for onchain counterparties. You need to build the liquidity management when the rail runs 247 and your funding windows don't. Reconciliation and reporting that uh need to satisfy both clients, treasury
[17:23] and your regulators. And client readiness. Um this is a good example. Uh most treasury teams that we're talking today are not set up to hold or manage a digital asset. It's simply the fact. Um so the bank has to absorb that complexity. The last one is also the governance that is also brings the complexity into that uh equation. Um every one of those programs goes through the same risk legal compliance audit reviews as any other product of the bank. Yes, it is slower um but uh at the
[17:56] bank right but it's also the reason a client would choose a bank for this in the first place and that's why they come to us. So you you mentioned like basically a lot of these are the hard parts that you need to do as a financial institution and and I guess you know it sort of relates to what you said before. You said the the value of the um of payments you move is by a factor a few factors probably bigger than the entire
[18:26] market cap of stable coins today. So, so when you bring this into your ecosystem and again, let's say you turn on stables and you want to move the same 18 trillion, is are those the difficult parts that you just mentioned that you need to turn on into a bank? What what's the hardest part when you're bringing this? >> Yeah, I think the hardest part it's figuring out how to operate it at the at where the client is. So we need to provide the product support around the clock and then we need to provide the
[18:57] staffing around the clock and we need to make sure that all the controls are at the same level because when you bring the new rail that operates differently compared to your traditional banking uh rails you need to figure out the everything around it to make sure that it all works in sync and it complements other rails that you already offer today for the client. Speaking of those other rails though, like we have real-time payments, we have same day aac, we have fed now. We probably got almost too many
[19:28] rails. Um, and so one, can you realistically operate these the same way or there are some nuances here? Like cuz it's it is slightly different technology I think versus ISO messages. But but two like are these complimentary? Is it like do we or does like stable coins just gradually start to eat volume from those like what was your hypothesis on on where these things fit together? >> So I just I just want to say that I don't think that we will ever have too
[19:59] many rails in payments. I I'll put it this way but to answer your question it is complimentary and the whole tension that uh is like kind of speculated right now is really overstated. Um domestically real-time payments and fed now are excellent. They're final, they're instant, they're well understood. Um where stable coins are generally differentiated is crossber payments, multicurrency accounts. Uh where correspondent banking dominates
[20:29] this stage. I would say the right framing is that stable coins are another rail in the portfolio. And a lot of times, not always the case, but the client shouldn't have to choose. The bank should route to whatever rail fits the payment. Rail agnostic money movement with the bank handling the orchestration. That is the perfect state for a lot of treasury teams today. >> Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. Like I I don't want to be thinking of payment rails. I want to be thinking of I need the money to get to that person, that
[20:59] business ASAP or I just want to get paid. Um and and interesting to see that that development. Um, look, I'm just going to take a quick pause here while we hear from our sponsors. And of course, this podcast is sponsored by our friends at Fireblocks. Tokenized is also sponsored by Fireblocks. Fireblocks is the stablecoin infrastructure of choice for global businesses from Visa to World Pay to Bridge to Revolute. With over a hundred billion dollars in monthly stable coin volume, Fireblocks powers stable coin strategies at scale with
[21:31] infrastructure that enables PSPs, fintexs, remitters, and banks to issue, move, hold, and manage stable coins. It's all done securely at scale with secure built-in compliance. With Fireblocks, you get complete control to build your own stable coin orchestration layer, create payment accounts, manage liquidity, and access on and off ramps in over 60 currencies. Makes it easier for you to build and scale and expand
[22:01] your business globally. Learn more at fireblocks.com. >> Thank you. And uh look, I mean, you mentioned actually something interesting. There's a lot of companies in this space, Eagor, that are trying to solve the Treasury management problem and they're coming into the space saying, uh, you know, there's there's fiat treasury now. We're we're bringing all these companies, whether they are remittance companies or payment companies, we're we're introducing them
[22:32] to a world of digital asset treasury, and now they need to source USDC for this here and USDT in this continent. And and what you're saying maybe is like okay it's great that these companies are are you know creating startups and getting funded and creating this middle layer but maybe over time it will be the banks who will provide that to their clients and they won't be needing and this middle layer because it's translating something today but might not be needed in the future.
[23:02] >> Yeah. I mean it's it's it's true on both sides right like if you think about the middle layer and the companies playing in this space um it helps us to understand uh the space if stable coins grow and banks are not a part of it deposits migrate and banks lose the relationship that's just the fact reserves have to sit somewhere redemptions have to clear somewhere and issuers need to operate and settle um and that is a banking business a fee and deposit opportunity not just uh like a
[23:33] simple threat. Uh the market that concentrated needs more regulated banking capacity, not less. The the risk is just not in the the new product or the stable coin space and the Fred is not just coming from other players in the game trying to provide the middle. It's just about bank sitting outside of that opportunity without taking the action. Yeah, I think banks being outside the opportunity was something you sort of covered earlier on and we know your CEOs looks at stable coins as a green field opportunity. You see
[24:03] digital assets as a client space. We talked about you know deposit flight and you said no actually this is something we're bringing in. So how do you think about partnerships with the digital asset industry whilst also maintaining the network you need frankly of other financial institutions because you're you're in some consortia as well you know sort of uh with TCH and many many others is that an intentional part of your strategy here that you're sort of a bridge between these worlds and how are you thinking about partnerships on both sides? Yeah, I think uh partnerships are
[24:35] great and then we are there to provide the support and then the subject matter expertise and share the vision of what banks actually need in the tokenized deposit space and uh stable coins. But when you look into the partnerships, no banks build this alone, never. And no fintech does it either. um that the ecosystem works today as it works because the pieces are specialized and uh we see issuers that are doing it the
[25:06] best. We see custody providers that have done it for a decade at this point at the institutional level and we see infrastructure providers on and off providers processors and uh we see that the data layer is coming up as increasingly important one too. Our role is the regulated fiat foundation for all of them and the orchestration around it. So the orchestration is accounts rails controls reporting partners bring the
[25:37] onchain capabilities and then we do what we do the best because the clients want all of those pieces feel like the same experience one experience and the integration help us to provide that seamless experience to the clients and then it's less visible to do that integration with partners but it's actually most of the work that we do behind the scenes >> and I I have to say I I love hearing this uh from you obviously but because you know now this is the the the song
[26:09] that a lot of banks are singing and it's it's amazing but it was such a tough journey and again you're here for a decade you know this but you know even for Fireblocks it took us took us seven years to get to 20 banks and another year to get to 150 banks running on Fireblocks right so it's it's very different in recent times And uh and again a lot of banks are trying to make this leap and you said so yourself right you you talked about how banks need to leap uh rather than you know seed
[26:40] leadership to the non-banking sector right uh where a lot of these fintexs are in a way taking advantage of of this technology because they can you know maybe do some regulatory arbitrage or maybe they can launch features faster globally or whatnot. But what does it mean for you when you build a team today in a bank and you need to compete and you need to lead and when you're building that team and when you're thinking about those products like are
[27:10] you thinking hey maybe we should think about non-custodial embedded wallets maybe we should think about DeFi trading with hyperlquid right how can how constrained can you be and how are you thinking when you're building those teams today >> yeah um so first I just want to say that I agree with you Goldie like I've seen how this place is evolved and then I started to work with infrastructure providers years ago when nobody had a real institutional grade offering in that space and then we had to defy like
[27:41] what rules do we need to support the institutional use cases and Fireblocks was there along the way and then we've seen how you became the essential infrastructure provider that piping the industry and that is great so we grew up together like through this uh crypto winters and different ups and downs of >> um and on to answer your question what does that mean and uh to to build a team today I think you need to hire people
[28:11] who are bilingual and what do I mean by that people who understand both the protocol layer and the regulatory layer and don't fleech it either the failure mode on one side is a team that can build anything but cannot get it approved. And on another side, it's the team that can navigate governance but doesn't know what what is technically possible. You need both in the same room. And the truth is you need people,
[28:42] you need product people willing to sit in risk committee meetings and that is the actual problem. A lot of times [laughter] >> I never met one of those, but yeah, if you find them, it's a unicorn. Hold on to those. Yeah, they they exist and they're saints and yeah, you got to hold on to them. Especially somebody who's come from startup land but can work in a big bank or vice versa. Those bilingual sort of characters. I I used to call them day walkers based on the movie Blade. You know, the vampires that can walk in the day. It's it's a similar idea. Um, I I
[29:12] saw a killer stat in the Capgeemini world payments report that dropped just today because I'm that much of a payments nerd that apparently 60% of corporate treasury leaders would be open to taking stable coin solutions from non-banks which says to me again your point about don't seed that territory is going to be really really crucial. And of course um you know zooming back out to um to 2023 we had the uh banking crisis. We had Silicon Valley Bank Circle was caught up
[29:42] in that. U we had Signature and Silvergate but you guys did quite well out of that situation or a very different capitalized bank. So, how do you think about building that operational resilience that you were sort of alluding to when talking about the infrastructure here to be able to last through the next crypto winter and the next liquidity crisis? >> Yeah, I think same playbook explore the capabilities before you need it. So, when the moment
[30:13] arrives, you are executing rather than start designing it. um ready for a bank of our size doesn't mean we are announcing everything every day. It means the account structure exists. The the controls are tested. The partners are vetted. The regulators understand what we are doing and why. And we've run real volume through real flows with real counterparties. Um and when the client comes with the real use case, uh the
[30:44] answer is more about the timeline, not just the physibility study that we need to complete and assess that. And then we've built all of the pieces that we need to support that. um on the new life side to date. >> I remember being uh at a bank in 2016 uh having to just start some of this work and sometimes it takes a very long time to get this stuff to production and to get those those results going and it's you know now here we are a decade later and you got banks like Fifth Third and New Line really leaning into it. But
[31:16] that's not every bank right now. So if you have to make a case to a skeptical banker who thinks this is that's just the crypto stuff, you know, this isn't really a commercial banking story, what do you say to your colleagues and your peers? >> Yeah, look, I mean, you you start with the real volume and then you start with the volume and understand where it sits. most stable coin payment flows is a businessto business payment today. Um including service fees, payroll, supply payment and that is not a trading
[31:48] ledger. That is a commercial banking book. It's just being written somewhere other than a bank. And I would ask a few questions to a skeptical banker. Um do your clients complain about settlement times? Do they park idle cash because they cannot move it fast enough? Do they want payments to clear on a Saturday or Sunday? If if the answer is yes, >> yes to all. Yes to all. >> Yes. Yeah. So you are already in the
[32:18] business. You just haven't picked the use case and the rail, then that is a banking history that is pretty clear today. like you you have to control the relationship and the settlement settlement layer in the back and it's it's not even an argument in the crypto space. It's just the franchise argument at their point. >> Look, I mean uh you're you're saying exactly what I'm so happy that Eigor that you find yourself at fifth honestly. Uh and again I know
[32:48] you had you've been in the space for a decade uh in various roles but I uh honestly just genuinely happy that you're one of the people who are leading this in one of the 10th largest banks in the US. Uh which and unfortunately I have to ask you the final question that we ask all of our guests. um 20 years from now, Eigor, stable coins, everything we've doing here, everything we've been talking about, are they just another story, just another, you know,
[33:18] something to tell uh our kids about what we played with before something else came or are they a fact? >> I like NFTs. Kind of like my hair, right? Like, is it is it a story or is it real? >> Yeah. Well, let's put me on record and then circle back 20 years after and then see where it is. Um I I think it's it's a it's a it's a real story. It's a fact. And um uh I think it's a boring one. Uh that which is probably the best outcome. In 20 years, nobody will talk about
[33:50] stable coins in my opinion. The same way nobody talks about sending an AC file today. Um or says, >> well, I do, but I get your point, right? Like [laughter] people don't think about uh the ISO 2022 upgrade over breakfast very often. Um there's only a small subset of us that do. Most corporates don't. >> Most corporates don't. That's true. Um I I I say like another example like nobody says I looked it up on the internet at the general speaking like right. We just like point straight to the point. The
[34:21] internet is not a thing that we use on the daily basis when we refer to these specific things that we found online. I was like it it will be it it will simply be how money moves. tokenized value settled in the background with banks doing what they've done best, safeguarding reserves, managing risks, ensuring money is there when it's needed, and the story is how we get there from here to there. And that is just the fact
[34:52] on one point we'll we'll we'll be there. >> All right, Eagle. Well, that is a great point to leave it on and we'll come back in 20 years time precisely. Um, and if we're all still alive, God willing, uh, then we we'll be we'll be in we'll be in good shape. Uh, look, thanks everybody who's watched and listened. Um, I really appreciate it. Ego, if um, people want to find out more about, uh, what you're doing at New Line and Fifth Third, where do they go to find out more about what you guys offer? >> Uh, they can reach out to me on LinkedIn
[35:23] directly or they can reach out to me via email. It's uh essentially my first name, dot my last name at 53.com. >> Ah 53 53. There it is. Uh Goldie, how about you? >> Uh you can find me at Rang Goldie on LinkedIn or Rangold on X or if you go on IRC or have a BBS server, you can find me at Rang Goldie Wars downloads.com. >> Mhm. I love that. Make a note of it people. BBM's Blackberry Messenger. What a throwback. Uh, you'll find me at
[35:53] sytail on all of the socials, screaming into the void at brainfood.xyz and of course at tempo.xyz where we're just about to cook. It's getting very exciting out there, folks. Stay locked to this podcast for more stable coin stories. You can do that by subscribing, uh, sharing, leaving us a review, liking if you are using YouTube. Thank you very much and we'll catch you next time. >> [music]
[36:24] >> Hey, [music]