Anthony Pompliano
Un antiguo operador de Citadel ahora apuesta por los inversores minoristas
🇬🇧 EN🇪🇸 ES
BitcoinMacroTrading
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TL;DR
Resumen de investigación
▶ Moomoo y el acceso del inversor minorista
La entrevista presenta a Neil McDonald, CEO de Moomoo US, y su experiencia en grandes instituciones financieras y mesas de negociación. McDonald atribuye parte del crecimiento de Moomoo al auge del trading minorista, su expansión en EE. UU. desde aproximadamente 2019–2020 y una mayor visibilidad mediante patrocinios y una tienda con cafetería en Manhattan. Describe cuatro carencias históricas del minorista: información, acceso, herramientas y disciplina de riesgo. Según él, internet redujo la asimetría informativa y plataformas como E*TRADE y Robinhood abarataron el acceso y las operaciones; el siguiente reto es convertir ese acceso y esa información en decisiones útiles. Como ejemplo histórico de la desventaja minorista, explica que la llamada teoría de los lotes impares interpretaba una mayor participación minorista como señal de venta y una menor como señal de compra.
▶ Herramientas cuantitativas y apoyo de la comunidad
McDonald afirma que la plataforma ofrece en ordenador y móvil herramientas comparables a las que utilizó en una mesa cuantitativa de Citadel: creación de algoritmos sin código, pruebas retrospectivas gratuitas sobre 20 años de datos, historial de entradas y salidas y resultados de pérdidas y ganancias, con opción de ejecutar el algoritmo. Dice que las grandes firmas aún conservan una ventaja de velocidad por la proximidad de sus servidores a los motores de negociación, pero que las herramientas minoristas se han acercado y que la IA contribuye a nivelar el acceso. Añade la disciplina de riesgo como carencia central: considera difícil operar con dinero propio por emociones como el FOMO, el miedo y la aversión al riesgo, y reconoce que él mismo ha perseguido operaciones y salido por pánico. Presenta la comunidad global de Moomoo, de 29 millones de personas, como una forma de compartir análisis, estrategias y parámetros de algoritmos; cuenta que consulta a otros sobre operaciones, opciones, puntos de salida y carteras. Describe el propósito de la empresa como hacer que invertir sea más fácil, pero no en solitario.
▶ IA para filtrar información y buscar patrones
McDonald dice que la plataforma ya incorpora IA y herramientas basadas en LLM. Como ejemplo, un usuario puede elegir entre 26 estrategias técnicas, como doble techo o cabeza y hombros, para buscar rápidamente acciones que presenten esas formaciones. La interfaz permite revisar los resultados y el usuario debe confirmar si quiere operar; los participantes comentan que automatizar la búsqueda puede ahorrar tiempo y reducir errores, aunque las personas pueden encontrar patrones que no existen o buscar argumentos para justificar una compra. McDonald compara la función de apoyo con sistemas de IA que ayudan a leer radiografías: la herramienta asiste y el humano supervisa. También sostiene que la IA resume documentos y compara anuncios de resultados con los anteriores, lo que reduce el tiempo de investigación frente a revisar varios informes y llamadas por cuenta propia.
▶ Clientes, cripto y valores tokenizados
McDonald caracteriza a los usuarios de Moomoo principalmente como inversores en acciones y de horizonte más largo, más que operadores diarios de entrada y salida. Dice que algunos asignan a cripto un 5–10% de la cartera, comprando con dinero fiduciario sin tener que gestionar una cartera digital; la plataforma se ocupa de las conversiones y presenta el activo en la cuenta de forma similar a una acción. Sobre tokenización, relata que Moomoo participó en una emisión de Figure y afirma que fue el único bróker con capacidad técnica para hacerla dentro del plazo. El cliente compra un activo en dólares y, según su explicación, la infraestructura convierte la operación a XLTS para que se acuñe en Figure; fuera de Figure ATS, menciona Provenance como vía de compra. McDonald espera que haya más emisiones de este tipo. Atribuye a Mike Cagney la predicción de que todas las acciones podrían llegar a estar tokenizadas, pero Moomoo dice esperar que algunas futuras grandes salidas a bolsa se emitan en parte de forma nativa en blockchain. Como motivos de compra de la emisión de Figure, señala el interés por adquirir el primer valor tokenizado registrado por la SEC en la plataforma y la posibilidad de obtener rendimiento y usarlo como garantía. Contrasta esa utilidad potencial del token con una acción convencional, que, según su ejemplo, puede respaldar un préstamo de margen, pero no necesariamente un préstamo para vivienda ni generar rendimiento cuando escasea el préstamo de acciones.
▶ Anuncios de Uphold y Arch Public
Este tramo contiene dos segmentos publicitarios, no declaraciones de inversión personal de los entrevistados. El anuncio de Uphold promociona una plataforma para operar, obtener rendimiento, hacer staking o gastar cripto y divisas; menciona más de 300 monedas, intercambios entre activos, una bóveda con multifirma y recuperación de claves, reservas completas, pruebas de reservas actualizadas cada 30 segundos y una cuenta de interés en dólares para usuarios de EE. UU. que, según el anuncio, no tiene comisiones ni mínimos y ofrece cobertura de hasta 2,5 millones de dólares mediante el Atomic Cash Sweep Program. El anuncio de Arch Public promociona estrategias automatizadas de cripto personalizables, algoritmos para Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana y XRP, apoyo de un equipo de atención y asociaciones como socio de trading de Coinbase, Kraken, Robinhood y Gemini. También afirma ofrecer inicio gratuito, sin cargos ocultos y con un historial de seguridad y rendimiento.
▶ Mercados cripto, opciones y controles de riesgo
Los participantes describen dos vías que pueden coexistir: activos cripto que buscan entrar en sistemas regulados y mercados descentralizados sin permisos; mencionan que uno de los contratos más negociados en Hyperliquid era el petróleo. McDonald dice que hay clientes que prefieren el acceso sin permisos y otros que buscan una plataforma segura, familiar y con herramientas similares a las de acciones. Explica que Moomoo se tomó tiempo antes de ofrecer crudo y que busca aportar rigor, disciplina y transparencia al trading de cripto. Sobre opciones, afirma que es uno de los productos más sólidos de la plataforma. El constructor de estrategias permite indicar una perspectiva —de muy alcista a muy bajista—, tolerancia al riesgo y vencimiento, y muestra posibles pagos para ajustar strikes y riesgo antes de operar. Para opciones de vencimiento en el mismo día (0DTE), dice que usa stops dinámicos y que no entra sin uno; describe cómo puede variar drásticamente el precio de una opción. Según McDonald, las sugerencias de producto se originan en solicitudes de clientes y pasan al equipo de producto, aunque él también aporta ideas. Afirma que la empresa tiene 4.000 empleados globalmente, 3.000 de ellos en desarrollo de producto.
▶ Asignaciones de IPO y cultura de trabajo
McDonald dice que Moomoo ha defendido mayores asignaciones de IPO para inversores minoristas y que ha encontrado receptividad en fundadores que quieren cambiar sistemas heredados. Señala que existe una posible percepción de conflicto de interés cuando un banco de inversión determina el precio y lo distribuye a sus clientes institucionales. Como contraejemplo a la idea de que el minorista solo revende acciones, afirma que los clientes de Moomoo han sido compradores netos de Figure —transcrito también como “Fig or Bill”— cada semana desde la IPO, y que actualmente hay más tenedores que la asignación recibida. Para un acuerdo de 200 millones de dólares, dice que la demanda fue de casi 700 millones, aunque añade que la acción cotizaba por debajo de su precio de salida. Luego recuerda la cultura de Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley y JP Morgan como basada en excelencia, humildad y colaboración; describe Moomoo como una startup dinámica y con pocos egos. Repasa su trabajo en opciones de índices, creación del ISE electrónico en 1999, creación de negocio de creación electrónica de mercado en JP Morgan y negociación cuantitativa en Citadel, y dice que las herramientas de trading han sido un interés constante y que Moomoo es su lugar de trabajo favorito de su carrera.
▶ Regulación, perfil del inversor y límites de riesgo
McDonald explica que Moomoo es una fintech y un bróker-dealer, registrado ante la SEC y regulado por FINRA; señala que una interrupción que impidiera operar podría poner en riesgo el negocio. Dice que una parte importante de la oficina estadounidense se dedica a cumplimiento y protección al cliente, incluido AML, y que procura aplicar disciplina y transparencia a nuevas clases de activos. Antes de entrar en una actividad nueva, la empresa se pregunta por qué hacerlo, por qué ahora, si beneficia al cliente, si es el momento y si Moomoo puede aportar algo distinto. Describe a sus usuarios como personas de 25 a 42 años, algunas con dinero heredado de sus padres, con un AUM promedio que, según él, supera al de sus competidores estadounidenses. Dice que predominan las estrategias de compra y mantenimiento y que, aunque hay usuarios activos, no suelen operar excesivamente opciones 0DTE. Como ejemplo de sofisticación, menciona clientes que compraron Nvidia por debajo de 20 dólares en enero de 2023, compraron en caídas y usaron spreads de crédito cuando el precio estaba extendido o spreads de puts cuando bajaba. Afirma que algunos clientes ven las caídas como oportunidades, a diferencia de los gestores de ciertos fondos con límites estrictos. Describe los límites de fondos tipo pod: menciona un umbral de Sharpe de aproximadamente 2,6 para mostrar historial y una reducción o cierre de la estrategia al caer ciertos niveles, incluido un descenso del 5%. Los participantes reconocen que esos controles pueden limitar la recuperación de gestores que aceptarían drawdowns mayores. McDonald relaciona la sofisticación creciente de inversores y fondos con la educación y las redes sociales; dice que la plataforma tiene 2.000 vídeos formativos y que la distancia entre un operador minorista sofisticado y profesionales de Millennium o Citadel se ha estrechado, especialmente con la IA.
▶ Riesgos operativos y cierre
Al preguntarle qué le preocupa, McDonald menciona la regulación y la necesidad de que los reguladores avancen más rápido ante cambios tecnológicos, los problemas ligados a la IA y la capacidad de seguir ofreciendo herramientas útiles. Señala que, como bróker-dealer, Moomoo necesita tanto infraestructura estable y segura como desarrollo de IA. Afirma que la plataforma da acceso 24/5 al token de Figure y que su preocupación operativa es que el servicio sufra una caída. Dice dormir más como CEO que cuando dirigía riesgo en Citadel, Jefferies y Warburg, porque ya no gestiona una cartera de negociación, aunque sí le preocupan los clientes, el riesgo reputacional y la disponibilidad de la plataforma. Comenta que antes le preocupaban los acontecimientos de fin de semana que podían afectar una gran cartera global de opciones. Al final, ambos destacan que las pruebas retrospectivas y compartir estrategias en los chats permiten democratizar herramientas y crear una sensación de participar en un espacio de trading colectivo. El presentador cierra recomendando Moomoo y agradece la entrevista.
Transcripción completa
[0:00] If I've got $10,000 of Nvidia, I can't
[0:02] do anything with it, right? I can pledge
[0:03] it for a margin loan, great. But I can't
[0:05] pledge it for a home loan. I can't take
[0:06] cash out against it. If the stock loan
[0:08] gets tight, I get no yield. If I hold
[0:10] the the blockchain native token, I can
[0:12] enter into a smart contract either on
[0:14] Figure or another platform, earn yield,
[0:17] take cash against it. I can use as a
[0:19] home loan. You know, it's got utility to
[0:21] me. What's going on, guys? Today, we got
[0:23] a great conversation with Neil McDonald.
[0:24] He's the CEO of Mumu US. And Mumu is
[0:27] taking over the United States. These
[0:28] guys are on fire and he's here to
[0:30] explain to us exactly what's happening.
[0:32] Why so many retail traders now have
[0:33] sophisticated tools? What are they doing
[0:35] on the platform? How is he thinking
[0:37] about tokenized stocks, crypto, and
[0:38] various other new technologies? And then
[0:40] we even get into what he's doing himself
[0:42] on the platform. Neil's very interesting
[0:44] because he used to work at a bunch of
[0:46] very large financial institutions. He
[0:48] was a big dog there. He ran some of the
[0:49] teams. He's going to explain to us what
[0:51] was going on there, how the cultures
[0:52] worked. but now he's the CEO of a retail
[0:54] trading platform and he's trying to
[0:55] bring a lot of those types of tools or
[0:57] those types of approaches to the retail
[0:59] trader. That's you, that's me and a lot
[1:01] of people who are listening. Here's my
[1:02] conversation with Neil McDonald. All
[1:04] right, Neil, I thought a great place to
[1:05] start the conversation. Mumu is taking
[1:07] over the world. I think that people in
[1:08] the United States a couple years ago,
[1:10] they had never heard of this thing
[1:11] before. They had heard of, you know, all
[1:12] the other retail brokerage platforms.
[1:14] And you guys burst on the scene. You're
[1:16] taking over the Subway. You got a Mets
[1:17] partnership. All this stuff that is
[1:19] marketing. But I looked into the
[1:21] numbers. You guys are massive. Talk a
[1:23] little bit as to why is Mumu being so
[1:25] successful on a global stage behind this
[1:27] whole retail trader movement.
[1:29] >> I I think we kind of caught the the uh
[1:32] it's it's good timing, right? So the
[1:33] rise of the retail trade everyone talks
[1:35] about. Um so we got like Mumu is a
[1:38] global firm. So we started in Hong Kong.
[1:40] Uh we came to the US about 201920. But
[1:43] the big push in the US has been really
[1:45] the past couple of years with the subway
[1:47] with the Mets uh and just the name
[1:48] recognition. We're open. We're going old
[1:50] school. We're opening a store back to
[1:52] the old Erade days with a coffee shop in
[1:54] it uh in Midtown on 33rd and Broadway uh
[1:57] just to be more visible and you know
[1:59] have something people can touch and
[2:01] trust and and and everything else. So I
[2:04] I I got a call two years ago from I Mu
[2:07] was not on my radar. It was kind of I
[2:08] knew all the other I've got every other
[2:10] platform.
[2:10] >> No, you did you did the marathon. You
[2:12] you went through pretty much every major
[2:14] amazing finance company. You worked
[2:16] there and ran a very big division there,
[2:17] right? Morgan Stanley, uh JP Morgan. And
[2:20] I you just ran the gamut.
[2:21] >> Yeah. So I was always a I ran options
[2:23] trading desk and quant trading desk at
[2:25] Citadel. I did all that kind of so I was
[2:27] always on the other side of the retail
[2:29] trader, right? I was always the guy
[2:31] happy to take retail. I would pay more
[2:33] to people like Erade and TD and those
[2:36] guys. Uh there's four things that retail
[2:39] traders have lacked, right? First was
[2:41] information. the information asymmetry
[2:43] when I started in late 80s uh I was at
[2:46] Goldman's and when Proctor and Gamble
[2:48] had their uh earnings for example that
[2:51] some guy would dial it in from
[2:52] Cincinnati to the sales guys they'd go
[2:54] and speak to the institutions uh the
[2:57] stock would move the the the all the
[2:59] information would be digested into the
[3:01] stock price and then by the time I got
[3:03] it up the next day as a retail guy in a
[3:05] Wall Street Journal or the Financial
[3:06] Times in the UK all the alpha's gone
[3:09] >> right so there is that huge information
[3:10] asymmetry that got solved by the
[3:13] internet.
[3:14] >> And then the second thing was access. So
[3:15] people like Erade, Robin Hood really
[3:18] gave cheap fast access to to data uh to
[3:22] the markets themselves. And then the
[3:24] rise of like free trading. So Robin Hood
[3:26] was revolutionary back in 20134 and
[3:29] that's when um Futu Muma started in Hong
[3:32] Kong around the same time. Um so I was
[3:34] saying it was information they lacked so
[3:37] they're always going to be wrong. If you
[3:39] do your series 7 today, and this is in
[3:41] 2026, they still have a qu a question
[3:44] and a section on a thing called the
[3:46] oddlot theory. And this is a real thing.
[3:49] And that is, and this obviously before
[3:51] you could slice and dice orders, block
[3:53] trades were institutions. Small trades
[3:55] were retail. That's just how it was
[3:57] before you slice trades and did small
[3:58] ALGO stuff as an institution.
[4:02] And so when the volume divided by the
[4:04] number of trades hits a certain level,
[4:06] so it's more retail participation. When
[4:08] that gets high, it's a sell signal and
[4:10] when it gets low, it's a buy signal,
[4:12] >> right? So they're always wrong. So we
[4:15] solved the internet solved the
[4:16] Street.com or Yahoo Finance. That's
[4:18] democratized information. All of a
[4:20] sudden, I know when the uh when the Fed
[4:23] changes rates, I know when an earnings
[4:24] report comes out, I can watch the news.
[4:26] I can watch CNBC. I can listen to
[4:29] podcasts. So we all have the same
[4:30] information. But then do you have the
[4:32] access and now everyone has the access
[4:34] and um commission free trading so it's
[4:37] cheap and it's accessible. So the next
[4:39] step, what they didn't have is the
[4:40] tools, right? So you've got the access,
[4:42] you've got the information. How do I
[4:44] actually use the accessing information
[4:46] to make money? So the tools wise, uh, if
[4:49] you're looking on our platform, it's
[4:50] it's bonkers. It really is. It's you
[4:52] have on our desktop and our phone what I
[4:56] had at Citadel running a quant trading
[4:57] desk. You've got back testing. Um, it's
[5:00] funny. It's new year. every new year for
[5:02] the past maybe 10 15 years I bought the
[5:05] Udemy teach yourself Python course right
[5:08] >> I've done two lessons and given up um on
[5:11] our platform you don't need that anymore
[5:13] it's uh no code algo building so just
[5:16] block to block to block just if then if
[5:18] then if then here's is here's the crazy
[5:20] thing I can build an algo
[5:22] >> and then I can back test it on 20 years
[5:25] worth of data for free
[5:26] >> wow
[5:26] >> and it'll give me every entry and exit
[5:28] point I did every trade and how your P&L
[5:31] looks over time for whatever time period
[5:34] you choose and then if you like it you
[5:36] click and you run the algo and that's
[5:38] pretty cool right
[5:39] >> you know so it's great having you know
[5:40] but then again it's great having great
[5:41] tools but you have to teach people how
[5:43] to use them
[5:43] >> now as the retail tools increased in
[5:46] efficacy did the big bad Wall Street
[5:49] firms the citadels of the world etc
[5:51] tools obviously have increased as well
[5:52] so do you think that um they still have
[5:54] an advantage but maybe it's a little bit
[5:56] more of an even playing field
[5:58] >> it's much more even their advantage is
[6:00] still maybe in speed.
[6:01] >> Mhm.
[6:01] >> Right. So, we're we're pretty quick, but
[6:03] we don't have our bare metal servers,
[6:05] you know, three cm away from where the
[6:08] matching engine is, cuz we don't need
[6:10] super super microscond or um speed, but
[6:13] certainly the tools are at a par of
[6:15] where it was 5 years ago.
[6:17] >> I mean, that's pretty crazy, right?
[6:18] >> And then with aentic AI and everything
[6:20] else, it really has leveled it to the
[6:22] point.
[6:22] >> Mhm. Now, when you look at you guys
[6:24] versus many of the other retail trading
[6:26] platforms, what do you think the big
[6:27] differences are? Why have you guys had
[6:28] so much success? Well, so the the fourth
[6:30] thing is that that we lack if we go back
[6:32] to that for a second. So is that is um
[6:34] information access tools and then it's
[6:37] really uh risk discipline, right? Human
[6:39] beings are generally terrible traders on
[6:41] your own. So when I sat at Gas or JP
[6:44] Morgan, I was in a big trading floor
[6:46] with 500 smart people trading somebody
[6:49] else's money. That's kind of
[6:50] >> that's an easier thing to do than to be
[6:52] sat at home with your own money trading
[6:55] to try and build a financial future for
[6:57] yourself. stuff.
[6:58] >> You know, human beings are emotional
[7:01] >> um emotional beings.
[7:04] >> Um FOMO,
[7:07] uh risk aversion, all the huristics from
[7:09] the Chicago school, all that, you know,
[7:11] Tanaman, Cannaman and Terski stuff. Uh
[7:14] it's tough to trade cuz even when I
[7:16] trade on my own, so when I've had to
[7:18] leave a company and have a three or six
[7:21] month garden leave, I'm trading my own
[7:23] money. Terrible. Awful. Interesting. I
[7:25] chase stuff and I panic out and cuz it's
[7:28] tough. So what we have is this 29
[7:30] million people distributed
[7:33] uh crowdsourced risk management kind of
[7:36] um desk of people. So you'll see people
[7:39] when our biggest influx of cash was uh
[7:41] liberation day last year really just
[7:44] came and they bought the dip and I was
[7:45] on the Nvidia chat and it's every second
[7:48] someone's saying something but this is
[7:49] someone in Tokyo in Hong Kong in
[7:50] Singapore in Australia in Canada or in
[7:53] the US and I was like what do I do here
[7:55] and they're like no guess below 100
[7:56] we're all buying and it's there's like a
[7:59] it's like having a trading floor of
[8:00] people to speak to so you don't I always
[8:02] before I trade I say what do you think
[8:04] and I'll send my trades out I'll send my
[8:06] port portfolio out. I'll send my algos
[8:08] out and people will take the time to run
[8:11] them themselves and change parameters
[8:12] and say, "Hey, here's an extra 400 basis
[8:14] points if you change this."
[8:16] >> Interesting. And so this social
[8:17] component is something that most of
[8:19] these other platforms do not have.
[8:20] Explain a little bit more as to how this
[8:21] works.
[8:22] >> So it's something it's a bit like
[8:24] Wikipedia against Carter, right? Some
[8:27] things are organic and can't be replaced
[8:29] and some things you can't just throw
[8:30] money at. So we started this back in
[8:32] 2013 just to make it like a a chat room
[8:34] for people to share ideas. One of the
[8:37] one of the main uh tenants in the firm
[8:38] is to make investing easier but not
[8:41] alone.
[8:42] >> And that's super important. Um I know as
[8:44] I said I'm a terrible trader when it's
[8:46] I'm actually on my own and not talking
[8:48] to other people, not bouncing ideas off
[8:50] people. I I'll panic. I'll do all the
[8:53] all the trader stuff that traders do.
[8:55] Same things I do. [laughter] So this
[8:57] this community aspect is really really
[8:59] important. It's um I'm on there every
[9:01] single day. I have thousands of people
[9:02] who follow me. I follow thousands of
[9:04] people and I have people I really trust
[9:06] and I'll go what are we doing here? What
[9:08] are we thinking? Is this important?
[9:10] >> I'm thinking about behind these calls
[9:11] and I'll get and wait until this level
[9:14] before I buy them. You know what we
[9:16] think uh or you know I'm think where's
[9:18] my exit point here? So I'm trading
[9:20] options and where's my exit point and
[9:22] they go we think it's here.
[9:23] >> So it's it's like being on the trading
[9:25] floor but this is people around the
[9:27] world. Yeah. Now do you think at some
[9:29] point uh you'll also be asking the AI
[9:31] like it right now you're talking to
[9:33] humans do you think that AI will also be
[9:35] fast enough good enough etc to
[9:37] >> I think so yeah
[9:38] >> it's interesting right because you start
[9:40] AI and humans
[9:40] >> because we have AI on the platform it
[9:42] does some fun stuff some of the some of
[9:44] the LLM stuff we've got like for example
[9:46] uh if you like if you're a technical
[9:47] trader you like double tops or head and
[9:50] shoulders
[9:51] >> you just pick one of 26 strategies you
[9:54] click on it and in a second it finds
[9:56] every stock in the universe that has the
[9:58] setup and shows where it's drawn.
[10:00] >> So that's great for entry and exit
[10:02] points.
[10:02] >> Mhm. So, so explain this a little more
[10:04] because I think this is like a very
[10:06] fascinating way to think about retail
[10:08] investing is um information and
[10:12] education has drastically increased. Now
[10:13] you got somebody at home who says, "Hey,
[10:14] I like uh double tops." Yeah.
[10:16] >> Okay. I I look I spend hours a day
[10:19] trying to find stocks that are, you
[10:21] know, in this uh specific formation. Um,
[10:23] now they can basically say to the
[10:25] system, go find me every double top in
[10:27] the US listed public stock market.
[10:29] >> You just click it and it just it goes
[10:31] and it's in it's instant
[10:33] >> and then wish just like another click or
[10:34] two to be able to just buy
[10:35] >> and then you just click on it and it say
[10:37] what do you want to do here?
[10:38] >> Mhm.
[10:39] >> I mean it's it's you couldn't do that as
[10:40] a human being.
[10:41] >> Yeah. I mean you're you're basically
[10:43] automating what is uh hours and hours of
[10:46] uh time but also frankly prone to
[10:49] mistakes.
[10:50] >> Yeah. Right. Right. I mean, you know,
[10:51] I'm very
[10:52] >> human beings are really good at like
[10:53] seeing patterns that aren't there.
[10:54] >> That's what I mean. You want to you want
[10:56] to you want to buy, you'll find
[10:57] something to tell you that it's
[10:59] >> uh they say technical analysis is just
[11:01] astrology for men, right? You just draw
[11:03] the lines everywhere. Um but I kind of
[11:04] think of it like with doctors, right?
[11:06] like uh now AI is doing more and more
[11:08] reading of X-rays and there's still a
[11:10] doctor involved but the X-ray AI system
[11:14] is able to pick up things that the
[11:15] doctor may miss or maybe the doctor's
[11:17] just tired or you know been a long day
[11:20] or whatever. To me that's where AI
[11:22] becomes really really interesting is
[11:23] it's augmenting the human which sounds
[11:24] like kind of what you guys are doing
[11:26] where you're basically saying the human
[11:27] has an idea it tells the system to go
[11:29] find a bunch of stuff and then the human
[11:30] is the oversight and and double-checking
[11:33] and saying yes confirm I want to do
[11:34] this.
[11:34] >> Yeah. I always get the do you want to
[11:36] trade yes or no? There's always a
[11:37] confirmation part to any kind of uh
[11:40] trade that's kind of suggested or
[11:41] whatever. Um but it's tough cuz it's um
[11:45] you know I came here I was on the
[11:47] subway. I was still on my phone. I was
[11:48] on Twitter and stuff. I was reading some
[11:50] of your stuff. We just were bombarded
[11:53] with information more so now than at any
[11:55] time in history. Just bombarded with
[11:57] opinions, views, information, data. Um
[12:00] so what AI does on our platform anyway
[12:02] just cuts through that. tries to make
[12:04] signals to give you actionable things to
[12:06] do. you know to it will suggest to you
[12:08] here's the summary from uh from you know
[12:11] the filings from you can even ask it the
[12:13] earnings report what was different in
[12:15] this earnings earnings um announcement
[12:18] than the last one
[12:19] >> and I can't do that I'm not going to go
[12:21] through every announcement listen to
[12:22] listen to the earnings call for the last
[12:25] three or four quarters that's just too
[12:26] much work but you can do that with AI so
[12:28] it just cuts down your research time
[12:32] >> you guys have all of the traditional
[12:34] assets you also have crypto on the
[12:35] platform
[12:36] >> crypto
[12:36] talk a little bit as to what do you see
[12:38] users actually doing on the platform?
[12:40] Are they mostly equities? Are they more
[12:42] crypto traders? Are they international,
[12:44] domestic, just like what are some of the
[12:45] patterns?
[12:46] >> Yes. So, so our guys are generally the
[12:48] uh stock guys. Uh our clients tend to be
[12:51] like buy and hold and longer term. Um we
[12:54] have more of those than kind of the
[12:55] in-n-out active day traders. And so for
[12:58] crypto, we find it's people who want to
[13:00] make it 5 10% of their portfolio. So
[13:02] they buy it through fiat. They don't
[13:04] have to have a wallet. It's in their
[13:06] account. They look at their account and
[13:08] even though it's it's, you know, in in
[13:11] digital form in in their daily
[13:13] statements on the phone, it just looks
[13:14] like stock.
[13:15] >> Mhm.
[13:15] >> And they buy it with fiat. We do the
[13:16] conversions. We do all the packing
[13:18] stuff.
[13:18] >> And we actually funny off the talk about
[13:21] like digital stuff and tokenization. So
[13:23] the big deal happened in February, the
[13:26] the first um SEC blockchain native thing
[13:29] with Mike Kagny figure. So, we were the
[13:32] >> I I'm an investor figure and u you're a
[13:34] big fan of my cat. So, that was fun to
[13:36] see.
[13:36] >> I was talking to I was talking to him
[13:38] yesterday. Um so, we he had there was a
[13:40] tight deadline for the S1. It ran out on
[13:42] I think Feb 16th. U they only got the
[13:45] okay on the Thursday before and we were
[13:48] the only broker with the technical
[13:50] ability to make that happen.
[13:52] >> Interesting.
[13:53] >> So, on our platform, you buy it with
[13:54] stock. You just it's a US dollar asset
[13:57] on our platform. on the back end we
[13:59] convert to YLts and then we get it
[14:01] minted on open platform on on on figure.
[14:04] So the only place you can buy it outside
[14:07] of figure ATS is through MU.
[14:09] Interesting.
[14:10] >> So so we did that and we think there's
[14:11] going to be many more of those.
[14:12] >> I was going to say do you think that
[14:13] over the next five or 10 years like what
[14:15] percentage of the stocks that people are
[14:17] buying on your platform will be
[14:18] tokenized versions versus kind of the
[14:20] traditional electronic us?
[14:21] >> I think Mikey would say 100%.
[14:24] >> 100%. Yeah.
[14:25] >> Um we're just hoping maybe with uh
[14:28] things like OpenAI and you know um and
[14:31] the the big IPOs coming that those guys
[14:33] are fairly technically advanced in it
[14:35] would they would make some portion of
[14:36] those blockchain native you know so I
[14:39] mean we we took down a third of the IPO
[14:42] >> our clients so I actually asked our
[14:44] client why did you buy it? They there
[14:45] was they wanted to be to buy the first
[14:47] ever SEC registered tokenized security
[14:50] on on the platform. And then also you
[14:52] can earn yield, right? There's no, you
[14:54] know, if I've got $10,000 of Nvidia, I
[14:56] can't do anything with it, right? I can
[14:58] pledge it for a margin loan, great. But
[15:00] I can't pledge it for a home loan, I
[15:02] can't take cash out against it. Uh if
[15:04] the stock loan gets tight, I get no
[15:06] yield. Mhm.
[15:06] >> But if I own the if I hold the um the
[15:09] blockchain native token, I can enter
[15:11] into a smart contract either on Figure
[15:13] or another platform, earn yield. Um I
[15:16] can take that and um take cash against
[15:18] it. I can use as a home loan. You know,
[15:21] it's got utility to me that just a stock
[15:23] in a stock um portfolio has very little
[15:26] utility apart from collateral for
[15:29] margin. Today's episode is brought to
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[17:44] It's fascinating to see. Um on one hand
[17:46] you've got crypto assets that are trying
[17:49] to get into the regulated system. On the
[17:51] other hand you've got things like a
[17:52] hyperlquid or something right that's
[17:53] trying to basically create uh the like
[17:56] cryptonative decentralized you know
[17:58] version and both are working. I think
[18:00] that's the part like to me that's the
[18:02] biggest thing is it's not either or it's
[18:03] both it seems
[18:04] >> and you saw on you know one of the
[18:05] biggest traded contracts on hyper liquid
[18:07] was oil. So people like permissionless.
[18:09] There'll be a certain sector of the
[18:11] investor base and the client base who
[18:12] always want to do permissionless stuff.
[18:14] And then there's people who want to
[18:15] trade on a platform that's secure,
[18:17] that's guaranteed they can and they're
[18:19] used to using the tools for stocks. Um
[18:22] so what we didn't rush into crypto, we
[18:24] took our time.
[18:25] >> So we wanted to try and um you know
[18:28] bring some rigor, discipline,
[18:29] transparency to the process and just
[18:31] make trading crypto just like trading
[18:33] stocks.
[18:34] >> What about with the options? Like it
[18:35] seems like retail investors have, you
[18:36] know, really flocked to options trading.
[18:38] Um zero day options now are the most
[18:40] popular option. Um there's, you know,
[18:43] potential pitfalls with so many people
[18:45] trading options, but it does feel like
[18:46] this is a huge part of uh the market.
[18:48] >> Yeah, we we spe our option product is
[18:51] probably the strongest product we have
[18:52] and that's kind of our one of our
[18:54] advantages over the some of our
[18:55] competition is some of the tools we
[18:57] have. We have so I've been trading
[18:58] options for 35 plus years. You know,
[19:01] people say AI and tools will take your
[19:03] job. All my knowledge is worth zero
[19:06] right now. All that experience is worth
[19:08] nothing.
[19:08] >> We have a thing called option strategy
[19:10] builder where you say I'm very bullish
[19:12] bullish, neutral, bearish, very bearish.
[19:15] >> You can set a slider for your risk
[19:17] tolerance um for your um for the tenor
[19:20] you want to go out and it will just
[19:21] build you the strategy and show you all
[19:25] the payoffs all in um image format. And
[19:29] then you can just uh slide the strike
[19:31] slide um whether you want to take more
[19:33] risk or less risk and it will build a
[19:35] strategy and you can click trade it
[19:37] straight through the interface. So it's
[19:40] almost uh obiscating away some of the
[19:42] technical components of it and you're
[19:44] more so the user interface is making it
[19:46] much easier to interact with
[19:46] >> because you can just see your payoffs
[19:48] and then for zero DTES as you know you
[19:50] know gamma goes to infinity
[19:52] five to four and so one thing we have we
[19:55] have a trading stop on zero DTE
[19:58] >> so I use that I never enter into a zero
[20:01] TT but a trading stop especially because
[20:04] you want to catch that wizoo right you
[20:05] want to go it's 10 cents it's not it's a
[20:07] $150 um but then It's $150 and it's 10
[20:10] cents again.
[20:10] >> So I use tra I use our trading stops
[20:13] >> so I know if it goes up and it's down by
[20:14] 10 I'm out.
[20:15] >> Yeah. How important is it that you're
[20:16] trading on the platform as well?
[20:18] >> I make all the mistakes. So like this is
[20:20] what the uh your normal average uh
[20:22] trader will do. So I I use it and you
[20:25] know we have everything we do is we have
[20:27] this system called andon. I think it
[20:28] came from Toyota that um every change we
[20:31] make is driven by clients. So people
[20:33] make suggestions, I make suggestions
[20:35] that goes when it's a certain level goes
[20:37] straight to our product guys and then
[20:38] they start. So it's not we it's not like
[20:41] I'm thinking this would be a great
[20:42] feature. It's when people ask for the
[20:43] features.
[20:44] >> Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. But you as the uh leader
[20:48] of the business, you are like touching
[20:50] the problem, right? Yeah. Yeah. It feels
[20:53] like that would be pretty important.
[20:54] >> Yeah. So I I make suggestions and we can
[20:56] do this better. Here's what I'd like to
[20:57] see. And then it goes we to a group of
[20:59] people. We discuss and then Yeah. But we
[21:02] we actually turn out product really
[21:04] quickly. We got 4,000 you got 4,000
[21:07] people um globally 3,000 of them are in
[21:10] product development and um yeah product
[21:13] and dev.
[21:14] >> You've made a huge push into these IPO
[21:16] allocations and really advocated for
[21:18] retail investors to get bigger and
[21:19] bigger portions. What have you seen
[21:21] there in that effort? Yeah, I mean we've
[21:22] had most success with with people like
[21:24] Mike Kagny, Mike Bell because they're
[21:26] disruptive people by nature. And so they
[21:29] look at, you know, they made their money
[21:30] by looking at a a legacy ecosystem
[21:32] saying that doesn't make sense. I can do
[21:34] that better, cheaper, faster. Um so they
[21:37] look at the, you know, um you go to an
[21:40] investment bank and you have to pay them
[21:42] to tell you your price should be this so
[21:44] they can send it to their institutional
[21:46] um clients and there's a conflict of
[21:48] interest there or people can see that as
[21:50] a conflict of interest. So we went
[21:52] directly to these guys or we went
[21:53] through uh some of the banks. We said
[21:55] listen um we can show you all the data.
[21:57] Retail is not the idea the narrative
[21:59] that retail is a flipper is not the
[22:01] case. So we have all the data. If I take
[22:04] a figure or bullish for example we've
[22:06] been net buyers of the stock every week
[22:08] since the IPO.
[22:09] >> Interesting.
[22:10] >> So we have more people who hold the
[22:11] stock now than actually we got
[22:13] allocation for.
[22:14] >> Yeah. I mean great great for those
[22:15] businesses. Right.
[22:16] >> And we and we get huge amounts of
[22:17] demand. Bitco $200 million deal. Well, I
[22:20] know it's down uh from its its price,
[22:22] but we had like almost $700 million of
[22:25] um demand.
[22:26] >> Wow. Um you've been friends with Jordi
[22:30] Visser for a long time. Jord's a star of
[22:32] the show. We might have to change it to
[22:34] Pomp and Jordy show. Um but
[22:36] >> Jordy and Pompa maybe.
[22:38] >> Yeah. At this point, why even have my
[22:40] name in it? This is a Jordy show. Um
[22:42] talk a little bit about the early days
[22:44] of Morgan Stanley and your career and
[22:46] kind of what you learned there. And then
[22:47] also I think Citadel is a pretty
[22:49] interesting place that you know most
[22:51] people with your pedigree and experience
[22:54] they don't kind of flip over on the
[22:55] other side of the table and I think it's
[22:56] very fascinating. You worked at some of
[22:58] these places that are you know uh very
[23:00] well respected for a long time for the
[23:02] culture they built the quality of the
[23:03] people the tools they built. So talk a
[23:04] little bit about that.
[23:05] >> Yeah I what I remember about Gman's
[23:08] Morgan Stanley JP Morgan said I think
[23:10] culture was the main thing. There was a
[23:12] culture of excellence of uh being humble
[23:15] um never thinking you're right all the
[23:17] time collaboration. So when I joined
[23:19] Goldman there was maybe 4,000 people
[23:21] globally when it was still a partnership
[23:23] >> and it felt like you were part of
[23:25] something that that was really really
[23:26] important to me and I've been looking to
[23:28] work at places that have had that kind
[23:29] of
[23:30] >> uh it doesn't feel too corporate.
[23:33] Obviously they're large banks but you
[23:34] know within groups of people you're
[23:36] working with very smart people who are
[23:38] all trying to get to the same point.
[23:39] >> Mhm. So, uh, Mumu is is exactly like
[23:42] that. It feels like a startup. It feels
[23:44] exciting. So, when I've been at the
[23:46] banks, I've always done the more cutting
[23:48] edge stuff. So, with Jordi, when I was
[23:49] at Morgan Stanley, uh, we were index
[23:51] option traders together. I was doing
[23:52] Europe, he was doing the S&P,
[23:54] >> and then when the, um, when the ISC was
[23:58] formed in 99, the first electronic
[23:59] options exchange, uh, I co-led that
[24:02] group. So, I got into the automated
[24:04] market making, and then that led to the
[24:06] the quant algo trading at Citadel and at
[24:08] JP Morgan. built globally their
[24:10] electronic market making business. So
[24:12] the tools to trade have always been
[24:13] something I've been interested in.
[24:15] >> And then that kind of was natural when
[24:17] it comes to someone like Mumu that feels
[24:18] like a startup. Um a bunch of super
[24:21] smart people all working really hard. Uh
[24:25] a lack of egos. It's it's it's the
[24:27] favorite place. It's I would say it's
[24:29] it's my favorite place to have worked in
[24:31] all of my career. Yeah.
[24:32] >> Wow. And when you think about uh this
[24:36] business, I think one of the things
[24:37] that's really interesting is you've got
[24:38] a lot of fronts that you've got to uh
[24:40] kind of manage, right? You've obvious
[24:41] got the internal team and the culture
[24:42] and things that every business has to
[24:44] deal with. You're building technology.
[24:46] So there's all the product and dev work
[24:48] that you got to do, but you're building
[24:49] it in a dynamic environment where, you
[24:51] know, 10 years ago crypto wasn't a thing
[24:53] really uh for a lot of these platforms.
[24:55] Now it's tokenization, prediction
[24:57] market. I mean, it's just every day
[24:58] there's something new. And then you've
[24:59] also got to deal with regulation on top
[25:01] of that. And so talk about how do you
[25:03] like like what does your normal day look
[25:05] like? How do you handle so much
[25:06] complexity?
[25:07] >> I think that's a good point. So we're a
[25:09] fintech company but we're a broker
[25:10] dealer, right? So it's it's you can't be
[25:12] like a fintech that just throws things
[25:13] against the wall and breaks things and
[25:16] because you can't cuz if you break one
[25:17] thing and people can't trade, you're out
[25:18] of business, right? And then you know
[25:20] we're regulated by FINRA uh registered
[25:23] with the SEC. Um so we you know a large
[25:26] part of our US offers is compliance,
[25:28] >> right? [clears throat] So it's
[25:29] protecting the customer. um AML stuff.
[25:32] So, we're we're super tight on that
[25:34] stuff. It's a useful discipline to work
[25:36] within a highly regulated environment.
[25:38] It protects our clients. It protects us.
[25:40] Um and so, we're trying to bring that
[25:42] kind of as I said, rigor, compliance,
[25:44] transparency, discipline. I'm trying to
[25:46] bring that to new new classes. It's the
[25:48] first time in history I've never know. I
[25:50] don't know what next year will look
[25:51] like. It's super exciting.
[25:53] >> It's exciting, but it's also you got to
[25:55] try to figure it out. So, like what how
[25:56] do you try to figure it out?
[25:57] >> Yeah. So uh not rushing in not rushing
[26:00] into the next. So we we think long and
[26:02] hard. We think uh why us? Why this? Why
[26:05] now?
[26:05] >> And so they have those three questions
[26:07] have to be have to be answered. Is it
[26:09] the right thing for our clients? Is it
[26:11] the right timing for us? Are we the
[26:12] right people to do this? Can we deliver
[26:14] something different?
[26:15] >> Mhm. And so when you look at these new
[26:17] technologies that are coming out, uh one
[26:19] of the other things I think is really
[26:20] interesting is like who the quotequote
[26:22] retail investor or this like I call them
[26:24] independent investor is has really
[26:25] changed. It used to be, you know,
[26:26] somebody with five bucks. These people
[26:29] are wealthy now.
[26:30] >> These people are wealthy.
[26:31] >> Talk a little bit like who that user is.
[26:33] >> Yeah. I mean, it's that 25 to 42. Uh
[26:36] some of the money's come down from their
[26:37] parents. You know, there's that whole
[26:38] waterfall from uh from the boomers,
[26:41] >> but they're smart. I mean, they're not
[26:42] your average. They're not the retail
[26:44] investor of even 10 years ago.
[26:46] >> Um again, it's about educating yourself.
[26:48] So, you know, you can have all the best
[26:50] tools in the world, but if you don't
[26:51] teach people how to use them, they make
[26:53] it makes no sense. M so our our
[26:55] investors say our average AUM is much
[26:58] higher than our US competition. Um they
[27:01] tend to be buy and hold. They're not
[27:03] they don't they're not going crazy on
[27:05] zero DTE. They have the tools and we do
[27:07] have uh some active traders on the
[27:09] platform. Uh but generally
[27:12] um the I'm always amazed by their
[27:14] fortitude, right? they and that's part
[27:16] of being in the community stuff. But we
[27:18] have people who've bought Nvidia Jan 23
[27:21] at like below 20 bucks and all they've
[27:23] done is buy dips all the way down and
[27:26] then when it's a bit extended they'll
[27:28] sell sell credit spreads when it's
[27:29] coming off again they'll sell you know
[27:31] um put spreads so they're pretty
[27:34] sophisticated they're sophisticated they
[27:36] don't panic
[27:37] >> you know that's um you know I kind of
[27:40] make the joke that uh my wife's not
[27:42] going to fire me from my 401k right if I
[27:44] have a bad quarter but you know if you
[27:46] if you're an opponent millennium or your
[27:48] overleverag hedge fund. You have a bad
[27:50] quarter, you're out, you're down 5%,
[27:51] you've lost, right? So my um our clients
[27:55] will take draw downs and see it as
[27:58] opportunity. Talk a little bit more
[28:00] about like take the pods, right? And
[28:01] whether Citadel or anywhere else um or
[28:03] Millennium um I don't think people quite
[28:06] understand the risk limits and how uh
[28:09] kind of unemotional the decision-m there
[28:11] is. So so talk just a little bit.
[28:12] >> It's completely automated. So if you're
[28:13] a PM and you're running a strategy, you
[28:15] have to show your sharps above like 2.6
[28:17] I think it is for for say millennium. I
[28:20] don't want to quote Izzy here, but 2.6
[28:22] is 10. You know, you have to show a
[28:23] track record and then they'll give you
[28:25] money. Absolutely. And if you do well,
[28:27] you get paid.
[28:28] >> The downside is they start to gate you
[28:30] down two and a half, three and down
[28:32] five, you're out and they just stop you
[28:34] out and you wipe down.
[28:35] >> Yeah. So like let's say you're I don't
[28:37] know made $100 million. Once you're down
[28:39] 5% it's over.
[28:41] >> That's over.
[28:42] >> Yeah. And it's really a culture of
[28:44] >> I mean if you're up you know if you're
[28:45] up a 100 I think they scale it. So but
[28:48] if you're down five below average zero
[28:50] then you definitely are.
[28:51] >> Yeah. And so it's interesting because
[28:53] they're doing this across you know in
[28:54] some cases hundreds of pods and it
[28:56] really just becomes this like automated
[28:58] big risk mitigation you know.
[29:00] >> It's great. I mean it it's you know
[29:02] they're getting paid on the picks and
[29:03] shovels and other people are taking a
[29:05] risk.
[29:06] >> Mhm.
[29:06] >> So it's a great business model.
[29:08] >> Mhm. Yeah. That's pretty uh it's pretty
[29:09] interesting
[29:09] >> assuming that you've got really tight
[29:11] risk limits and that you can liquidate
[29:12] down five.
[29:13] >> Well, that's the other thing you get
[29:14] into these correlations and you know um
[29:16] I I always uh I yearn for the old school
[29:20] like cowboy risktakers.
[29:22] >> They're they're not working in any pod
[29:23] shops, right? Because these guys might
[29:24] go down 20% and you know make it all
[29:26] back in a single trade. Um, but I do
[29:28] think that the rise of the pod shops
[29:31] mirrors the rise of the sophisticated
[29:32] investor where everyone is becoming much
[29:35] more informed and understands some of
[29:38] the pitfalls of financial markets
[29:40] together. Um, and you know, Twitter X
[29:42] has been a huge part of that. But, but
[29:44] it does feel like the pod shops have
[29:46] really hit their stride and become super
[29:48] sophisticated. Retail has as well.
[29:50] Again, it's not saying a retail investor
[29:52] is like a pod shop, but um there just
[29:54] feels like overall the market is getting
[29:56] smarter.
[29:57] >> Yeah. I mean, again, it's an education
[29:59] process. We've got 2,000 videos and
[30:01] stuff on the platform trying to take
[30:03] people from,
[30:04] >> you know, trading 101 to to using algos
[30:07] to using uh back testing environments to
[30:09] using the tools. The gap between the guy
[30:11] at Millennium Citadel and the
[30:14] sophisticated retail retail trader has
[30:16] never been narrower and AI is making
[30:18] that really really tight. Interesting.
[30:20] What What do you like lay awake at night
[30:23] over? What What What are the challenges?
[30:25] >> Um
[30:27] >> other than the Mets not being good or
[30:30] the Mets being seven and 11. Just
[30:32] kidding.
[30:32] >> They've got to play one more game in in
[30:34] LA as well.
[30:36] >> As a Yankees fan, I can, you know, give
[30:38] a little
[30:38] >> They're going to be They're going to be
[30:39] seven and 12.
[30:41] >> They're going to be seven and 12 by this
[30:42] evening. [laughter]
[30:43] >> I I won't be watching the late game
[30:45] tonight. Um uh regulation whereas that's
[30:49] going clarity act I really care about.
[30:51] Regulators are having to move quicker
[30:53] than I think it makes them comfortable.
[30:55] The the world is changing so quickly.
[30:58] >> We got lots of initiatives with the AI
[31:00] stuff and with our tools. Um and it's
[31:03] just can can we keep up? Can we keep
[31:06] giving our guys the tools that they
[31:07] need?
[31:08] >> Mhm. So, you know, we we we most of our
[31:10] money goes in R&D and product
[31:12] development and we're just hoping that,
[31:14] you know, we keep telling
[31:15] >> the engineers like super AIDS and
[31:17] they're all just like running wild with
[31:18] all the models and everything.
[31:19] >> So, we have some like that and we have a
[31:21] whole section there. We got remember we
[31:23] we've got to run a broker dealer. So, we
[31:24] need the safe boring infrastructure
[31:27] >> um sci stuff all the stuff you need and
[31:30] then we've got the more fun stuff which
[31:32] is the AI
[31:33] >> um and the people coding the fun stuff.
[31:36] But a lot of it is just making sure
[31:37] we're up all the time like for for
[31:40] figure for the we make marketers 245 in
[31:43] the we make marketers we give access 245
[31:45] to figure D to the token.
[31:47] >> Mhm.
[31:47] >> So that was a big step for us and then
[31:49] so we we have to be up all the time. So
[31:51] >> my worry is uh at some point something
[31:54] happens and we go down.
[31:55] >> Do you sleep?
[31:56] >> I do sleep. Yeah. Yeah. I sleep a lot
[31:58] more as CEO of Muma than I ever slept at
[32:00] Citadel Jim World. Why?
[32:02] >> Cuz I'm not running risk.
[32:03] >> I'm running risk. I care about my my
[32:05] clients and reputational risk and they
[32:07] make sure the platform's up.
[32:08] >> Yeah. Yeah. But not like a book.
[32:10] >> Not like a book. Yeah.
[32:11] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting though
[32:12] that actually there you felt much more
[32:15] uh kind of pressure to uh on the risk
[32:17] side of the the book versus the uh
[32:19] >> Yeah. I mean especially because there's
[32:21] so much more information at weekends
[32:23] now.
[32:24] >> So if I was running a huge global
[32:26] options book and then you know something
[32:28] happens on a Saturday
[32:30] >> we got a guy at the White House. He
[32:31] likes to do stuff on Friday, Saturday,
[32:32] [laughter] Sunday. You know, I mean I
[32:34] would he suspiciously waits till market
[32:36] clos on Friday and starts firing off
[32:37] information.
[32:38] >> I would never be not running slides.
[32:39] >> Yeah. You know, but back then you
[32:42] mentioned Monte College before.
[32:43] >> We used to run those overnight
[32:45] >> on bare metal servers,
[32:47] >> right? [clears throat] Um and the fact
[32:48] on our platform you can click and just
[32:50] run a whole back test is is
[32:52] >> crazy. Yeah. Yeah. That's
[32:54] democratization right at it finest.
[32:56] >> And then you you can share them with
[32:57] people.
[32:58] >> Yeah. Yeah. So you see you see in our
[32:59] chat every day if you take video people
[33:02] just pulling their trades up and their
[33:03] wins, their losses
[33:05] >> and there's a feeling of being part of
[33:06] something, you know, in a big trading
[33:08] venue.
[33:09] >> Yeah.
[33:09] >> Uh rather than just being in your
[33:10] bedroom or in the kitchen or
[33:12] >> Yeah. I love it. I love it. All right.
[33:14] Well, thank you for taking the time to
[33:15] do this. If you guys want the best
[33:17] trading experience, go to Mumu. Go check
[33:18] them out and we'll do this again in the
[33:20] future.
[33:20] >> Anthony, thank you.
[0:02] do anything with it, right? I can pledge
[0:03] it for a margin loan, great. But I can't
[0:05] pledge it for a home loan. I can't take
[0:06] cash out against it. If the stock loan
[0:08] gets tight, I get no yield. If I hold
[0:10] the the blockchain native token, I can
[0:12] enter into a smart contract either on
[0:14] Figure or another platform, earn yield,
[0:17] take cash against it. I can use as a
[0:19] home loan. You know, it's got utility to
[0:21] me. What's going on, guys? Today, we got
[0:23] a great conversation with Neil McDonald.
[0:24] He's the CEO of Mumu US. And Mumu is
[0:27] taking over the United States. These
[0:28] guys are on fire and he's here to
[0:30] explain to us exactly what's happening.
[0:32] Why so many retail traders now have
[0:33] sophisticated tools? What are they doing
[0:35] on the platform? How is he thinking
[0:37] about tokenized stocks, crypto, and
[0:38] various other new technologies? And then
[0:40] we even get into what he's doing himself
[0:42] on the platform. Neil's very interesting
[0:44] because he used to work at a bunch of
[0:46] very large financial institutions. He
[0:48] was a big dog there. He ran some of the
[0:49] teams. He's going to explain to us what
[0:51] was going on there, how the cultures
[0:52] worked. but now he's the CEO of a retail
[0:54] trading platform and he's trying to
[0:55] bring a lot of those types of tools or
[0:57] those types of approaches to the retail
[0:59] trader. That's you, that's me and a lot
[1:01] of people who are listening. Here's my
[1:02] conversation with Neil McDonald. All
[1:04] right, Neil, I thought a great place to
[1:05] start the conversation. Mumu is taking
[1:07] over the world. I think that people in
[1:08] the United States a couple years ago,
[1:10] they had never heard of this thing
[1:11] before. They had heard of, you know, all
[1:12] the other retail brokerage platforms.
[1:14] And you guys burst on the scene. You're
[1:16] taking over the Subway. You got a Mets
[1:17] partnership. All this stuff that is
[1:19] marketing. But I looked into the
[1:21] numbers. You guys are massive. Talk a
[1:23] little bit as to why is Mumu being so
[1:25] successful on a global stage behind this
[1:27] whole retail trader movement.
[1:29] >> I I think we kind of caught the the uh
[1:32] it's it's good timing, right? So the
[1:33] rise of the retail trade everyone talks
[1:35] about. Um so we got like Mumu is a
[1:38] global firm. So we started in Hong Kong.
[1:40] Uh we came to the US about 201920. But
[1:43] the big push in the US has been really
[1:45] the past couple of years with the subway
[1:47] with the Mets uh and just the name
[1:48] recognition. We're open. We're going old
[1:50] school. We're opening a store back to
[1:52] the old Erade days with a coffee shop in
[1:54] it uh in Midtown on 33rd and Broadway uh
[1:57] just to be more visible and you know
[1:59] have something people can touch and
[2:01] trust and and and everything else. So I
[2:04] I I got a call two years ago from I Mu
[2:07] was not on my radar. It was kind of I
[2:08] knew all the other I've got every other
[2:10] platform.
[2:10] >> No, you did you did the marathon. You
[2:12] you went through pretty much every major
[2:14] amazing finance company. You worked
[2:16] there and ran a very big division there,
[2:17] right? Morgan Stanley, uh JP Morgan. And
[2:20] I you just ran the gamut.
[2:21] >> Yeah. So I was always a I ran options
[2:23] trading desk and quant trading desk at
[2:25] Citadel. I did all that kind of so I was
[2:27] always on the other side of the retail
[2:29] trader, right? I was always the guy
[2:31] happy to take retail. I would pay more
[2:33] to people like Erade and TD and those
[2:36] guys. Uh there's four things that retail
[2:39] traders have lacked, right? First was
[2:41] information. the information asymmetry
[2:43] when I started in late 80s uh I was at
[2:46] Goldman's and when Proctor and Gamble
[2:48] had their uh earnings for example that
[2:51] some guy would dial it in from
[2:52] Cincinnati to the sales guys they'd go
[2:54] and speak to the institutions uh the
[2:57] stock would move the the the all the
[2:59] information would be digested into the
[3:01] stock price and then by the time I got
[3:03] it up the next day as a retail guy in a
[3:05] Wall Street Journal or the Financial
[3:06] Times in the UK all the alpha's gone
[3:09] >> right so there is that huge information
[3:10] asymmetry that got solved by the
[3:13] internet.
[3:14] >> And then the second thing was access. So
[3:15] people like Erade, Robin Hood really
[3:18] gave cheap fast access to to data uh to
[3:22] the markets themselves. And then the
[3:24] rise of like free trading. So Robin Hood
[3:26] was revolutionary back in 20134 and
[3:29] that's when um Futu Muma started in Hong
[3:32] Kong around the same time. Um so I was
[3:34] saying it was information they lacked so
[3:37] they're always going to be wrong. If you
[3:39] do your series 7 today, and this is in
[3:41] 2026, they still have a qu a question
[3:44] and a section on a thing called the
[3:46] oddlot theory. And this is a real thing.
[3:49] And that is, and this obviously before
[3:51] you could slice and dice orders, block
[3:53] trades were institutions. Small trades
[3:55] were retail. That's just how it was
[3:57] before you slice trades and did small
[3:58] ALGO stuff as an institution.
[4:02] And so when the volume divided by the
[4:04] number of trades hits a certain level,
[4:06] so it's more retail participation. When
[4:08] that gets high, it's a sell signal and
[4:10] when it gets low, it's a buy signal,
[4:12] >> right? So they're always wrong. So we
[4:15] solved the internet solved the
[4:16] Street.com or Yahoo Finance. That's
[4:18] democratized information. All of a
[4:20] sudden, I know when the uh when the Fed
[4:23] changes rates, I know when an earnings
[4:24] report comes out, I can watch the news.
[4:26] I can watch CNBC. I can listen to
[4:29] podcasts. So we all have the same
[4:30] information. But then do you have the
[4:32] access and now everyone has the access
[4:34] and um commission free trading so it's
[4:37] cheap and it's accessible. So the next
[4:39] step, what they didn't have is the
[4:40] tools, right? So you've got the access,
[4:42] you've got the information. How do I
[4:44] actually use the accessing information
[4:46] to make money? So the tools wise, uh, if
[4:49] you're looking on our platform, it's
[4:50] it's bonkers. It really is. It's you
[4:52] have on our desktop and our phone what I
[4:56] had at Citadel running a quant trading
[4:57] desk. You've got back testing. Um, it's
[5:00] funny. It's new year. every new year for
[5:02] the past maybe 10 15 years I bought the
[5:05] Udemy teach yourself Python course right
[5:08] >> I've done two lessons and given up um on
[5:11] our platform you don't need that anymore
[5:13] it's uh no code algo building so just
[5:16] block to block to block just if then if
[5:18] then if then here's is here's the crazy
[5:20] thing I can build an algo
[5:22] >> and then I can back test it on 20 years
[5:25] worth of data for free
[5:26] >> wow
[5:26] >> and it'll give me every entry and exit
[5:28] point I did every trade and how your P&L
[5:31] looks over time for whatever time period
[5:34] you choose and then if you like it you
[5:36] click and you run the algo and that's
[5:38] pretty cool right
[5:39] >> you know so it's great having you know
[5:40] but then again it's great having great
[5:41] tools but you have to teach people how
[5:43] to use them
[5:43] >> now as the retail tools increased in
[5:46] efficacy did the big bad Wall Street
[5:49] firms the citadels of the world etc
[5:51] tools obviously have increased as well
[5:52] so do you think that um they still have
[5:54] an advantage but maybe it's a little bit
[5:56] more of an even playing field
[5:58] >> it's much more even their advantage is
[6:00] still maybe in speed.
[6:01] >> Mhm.
[6:01] >> Right. So, we're we're pretty quick, but
[6:03] we don't have our bare metal servers,
[6:05] you know, three cm away from where the
[6:08] matching engine is, cuz we don't need
[6:10] super super microscond or um speed, but
[6:13] certainly the tools are at a par of
[6:15] where it was 5 years ago.
[6:17] >> I mean, that's pretty crazy, right?
[6:18] >> And then with aentic AI and everything
[6:20] else, it really has leveled it to the
[6:22] point.
[6:22] >> Mhm. Now, when you look at you guys
[6:24] versus many of the other retail trading
[6:26] platforms, what do you think the big
[6:27] differences are? Why have you guys had
[6:28] so much success? Well, so the the fourth
[6:30] thing is that that we lack if we go back
[6:32] to that for a second. So is that is um
[6:34] information access tools and then it's
[6:37] really uh risk discipline, right? Human
[6:39] beings are generally terrible traders on
[6:41] your own. So when I sat at Gas or JP
[6:44] Morgan, I was in a big trading floor
[6:46] with 500 smart people trading somebody
[6:49] else's money. That's kind of
[6:50] >> that's an easier thing to do than to be
[6:52] sat at home with your own money trading
[6:55] to try and build a financial future for
[6:57] yourself. stuff.
[6:58] >> You know, human beings are emotional
[7:01] >> um emotional beings.
[7:04] >> Um FOMO,
[7:07] uh risk aversion, all the huristics from
[7:09] the Chicago school, all that, you know,
[7:11] Tanaman, Cannaman and Terski stuff. Uh
[7:14] it's tough to trade cuz even when I
[7:16] trade on my own, so when I've had to
[7:18] leave a company and have a three or six
[7:21] month garden leave, I'm trading my own
[7:23] money. Terrible. Awful. Interesting. I
[7:25] chase stuff and I panic out and cuz it's
[7:28] tough. So what we have is this 29
[7:30] million people distributed
[7:33] uh crowdsourced risk management kind of
[7:36] um desk of people. So you'll see people
[7:39] when our biggest influx of cash was uh
[7:41] liberation day last year really just
[7:44] came and they bought the dip and I was
[7:45] on the Nvidia chat and it's every second
[7:48] someone's saying something but this is
[7:49] someone in Tokyo in Hong Kong in
[7:50] Singapore in Australia in Canada or in
[7:53] the US and I was like what do I do here
[7:55] and they're like no guess below 100
[7:56] we're all buying and it's there's like a
[7:59] it's like having a trading floor of
[8:00] people to speak to so you don't I always
[8:02] before I trade I say what do you think
[8:04] and I'll send my trades out I'll send my
[8:06] port portfolio out. I'll send my algos
[8:08] out and people will take the time to run
[8:11] them themselves and change parameters
[8:12] and say, "Hey, here's an extra 400 basis
[8:14] points if you change this."
[8:16] >> Interesting. And so this social
[8:17] component is something that most of
[8:19] these other platforms do not have.
[8:20] Explain a little bit more as to how this
[8:21] works.
[8:22] >> So it's something it's a bit like
[8:24] Wikipedia against Carter, right? Some
[8:27] things are organic and can't be replaced
[8:29] and some things you can't just throw
[8:30] money at. So we started this back in
[8:32] 2013 just to make it like a a chat room
[8:34] for people to share ideas. One of the
[8:37] one of the main uh tenants in the firm
[8:38] is to make investing easier but not
[8:41] alone.
[8:42] >> And that's super important. Um I know as
[8:44] I said I'm a terrible trader when it's
[8:46] I'm actually on my own and not talking
[8:48] to other people, not bouncing ideas off
[8:50] people. I I'll panic. I'll do all the
[8:53] all the trader stuff that traders do.
[8:55] Same things I do. [laughter] So this
[8:57] this community aspect is really really
[8:59] important. It's um I'm on there every
[9:01] single day. I have thousands of people
[9:02] who follow me. I follow thousands of
[9:04] people and I have people I really trust
[9:06] and I'll go what are we doing here? What
[9:08] are we thinking? Is this important?
[9:10] >> I'm thinking about behind these calls
[9:11] and I'll get and wait until this level
[9:14] before I buy them. You know what we
[9:16] think uh or you know I'm think where's
[9:18] my exit point here? So I'm trading
[9:20] options and where's my exit point and
[9:22] they go we think it's here.
[9:23] >> So it's it's like being on the trading
[9:25] floor but this is people around the
[9:27] world. Yeah. Now do you think at some
[9:29] point uh you'll also be asking the AI
[9:31] like it right now you're talking to
[9:33] humans do you think that AI will also be
[9:35] fast enough good enough etc to
[9:37] >> I think so yeah
[9:38] >> it's interesting right because you start
[9:40] AI and humans
[9:40] >> because we have AI on the platform it
[9:42] does some fun stuff some of the some of
[9:44] the LLM stuff we've got like for example
[9:46] uh if you like if you're a technical
[9:47] trader you like double tops or head and
[9:50] shoulders
[9:51] >> you just pick one of 26 strategies you
[9:54] click on it and in a second it finds
[9:56] every stock in the universe that has the
[9:58] setup and shows where it's drawn.
[10:00] >> So that's great for entry and exit
[10:02] points.
[10:02] >> Mhm. So, so explain this a little more
[10:04] because I think this is like a very
[10:06] fascinating way to think about retail
[10:08] investing is um information and
[10:12] education has drastically increased. Now
[10:13] you got somebody at home who says, "Hey,
[10:14] I like uh double tops." Yeah.
[10:16] >> Okay. I I look I spend hours a day
[10:19] trying to find stocks that are, you
[10:21] know, in this uh specific formation. Um,
[10:23] now they can basically say to the
[10:25] system, go find me every double top in
[10:27] the US listed public stock market.
[10:29] >> You just click it and it just it goes
[10:31] and it's in it's instant
[10:33] >> and then wish just like another click or
[10:34] two to be able to just buy
[10:35] >> and then you just click on it and it say
[10:37] what do you want to do here?
[10:38] >> Mhm.
[10:39] >> I mean it's it's you couldn't do that as
[10:40] a human being.
[10:41] >> Yeah. I mean you're you're basically
[10:43] automating what is uh hours and hours of
[10:46] uh time but also frankly prone to
[10:49] mistakes.
[10:50] >> Yeah. Right. Right. I mean, you know,
[10:51] I'm very
[10:52] >> human beings are really good at like
[10:53] seeing patterns that aren't there.
[10:54] >> That's what I mean. You want to you want
[10:56] to you want to buy, you'll find
[10:57] something to tell you that it's
[10:59] >> uh they say technical analysis is just
[11:01] astrology for men, right? You just draw
[11:03] the lines everywhere. Um but I kind of
[11:04] think of it like with doctors, right?
[11:06] like uh now AI is doing more and more
[11:08] reading of X-rays and there's still a
[11:10] doctor involved but the X-ray AI system
[11:14] is able to pick up things that the
[11:15] doctor may miss or maybe the doctor's
[11:17] just tired or you know been a long day
[11:20] or whatever. To me that's where AI
[11:22] becomes really really interesting is
[11:23] it's augmenting the human which sounds
[11:24] like kind of what you guys are doing
[11:26] where you're basically saying the human
[11:27] has an idea it tells the system to go
[11:29] find a bunch of stuff and then the human
[11:30] is the oversight and and double-checking
[11:33] and saying yes confirm I want to do
[11:34] this.
[11:34] >> Yeah. I always get the do you want to
[11:36] trade yes or no? There's always a
[11:37] confirmation part to any kind of uh
[11:40] trade that's kind of suggested or
[11:41] whatever. Um but it's tough cuz it's um
[11:45] you know I came here I was on the
[11:47] subway. I was still on my phone. I was
[11:48] on Twitter and stuff. I was reading some
[11:50] of your stuff. We just were bombarded
[11:53] with information more so now than at any
[11:55] time in history. Just bombarded with
[11:57] opinions, views, information, data. Um
[12:00] so what AI does on our platform anyway
[12:02] just cuts through that. tries to make
[12:04] signals to give you actionable things to
[12:06] do. you know to it will suggest to you
[12:08] here's the summary from uh from you know
[12:11] the filings from you can even ask it the
[12:13] earnings report what was different in
[12:15] this earnings earnings um announcement
[12:18] than the last one
[12:19] >> and I can't do that I'm not going to go
[12:21] through every announcement listen to
[12:22] listen to the earnings call for the last
[12:25] three or four quarters that's just too
[12:26] much work but you can do that with AI so
[12:28] it just cuts down your research time
[12:32] >> you guys have all of the traditional
[12:34] assets you also have crypto on the
[12:35] platform
[12:36] >> crypto
[12:36] talk a little bit as to what do you see
[12:38] users actually doing on the platform?
[12:40] Are they mostly equities? Are they more
[12:42] crypto traders? Are they international,
[12:44] domestic, just like what are some of the
[12:45] patterns?
[12:46] >> Yes. So, so our guys are generally the
[12:48] uh stock guys. Uh our clients tend to be
[12:51] like buy and hold and longer term. Um we
[12:54] have more of those than kind of the
[12:55] in-n-out active day traders. And so for
[12:58] crypto, we find it's people who want to
[13:00] make it 5 10% of their portfolio. So
[13:02] they buy it through fiat. They don't
[13:04] have to have a wallet. It's in their
[13:06] account. They look at their account and
[13:08] even though it's it's, you know, in in
[13:11] digital form in in their daily
[13:13] statements on the phone, it just looks
[13:14] like stock.
[13:15] >> Mhm.
[13:15] >> And they buy it with fiat. We do the
[13:16] conversions. We do all the packing
[13:18] stuff.
[13:18] >> And we actually funny off the talk about
[13:21] like digital stuff and tokenization. So
[13:23] the big deal happened in February, the
[13:26] the first um SEC blockchain native thing
[13:29] with Mike Kagny figure. So, we were the
[13:32] >> I I'm an investor figure and u you're a
[13:34] big fan of my cat. So, that was fun to
[13:36] see.
[13:36] >> I was talking to I was talking to him
[13:38] yesterday. Um so, we he had there was a
[13:40] tight deadline for the S1. It ran out on
[13:42] I think Feb 16th. U they only got the
[13:45] okay on the Thursday before and we were
[13:48] the only broker with the technical
[13:50] ability to make that happen.
[13:52] >> Interesting.
[13:53] >> So, on our platform, you buy it with
[13:54] stock. You just it's a US dollar asset
[13:57] on our platform. on the back end we
[13:59] convert to YLts and then we get it
[14:01] minted on open platform on on on figure.
[14:04] So the only place you can buy it outside
[14:07] of figure ATS is through MU.
[14:09] Interesting.
[14:10] >> So so we did that and we think there's
[14:11] going to be many more of those.
[14:12] >> I was going to say do you think that
[14:13] over the next five or 10 years like what
[14:15] percentage of the stocks that people are
[14:17] buying on your platform will be
[14:18] tokenized versions versus kind of the
[14:20] traditional electronic us?
[14:21] >> I think Mikey would say 100%.
[14:24] >> 100%. Yeah.
[14:25] >> Um we're just hoping maybe with uh
[14:28] things like OpenAI and you know um and
[14:31] the the big IPOs coming that those guys
[14:33] are fairly technically advanced in it
[14:35] would they would make some portion of
[14:36] those blockchain native you know so I
[14:39] mean we we took down a third of the IPO
[14:42] >> our clients so I actually asked our
[14:44] client why did you buy it? They there
[14:45] was they wanted to be to buy the first
[14:47] ever SEC registered tokenized security
[14:50] on on the platform. And then also you
[14:52] can earn yield, right? There's no, you
[14:54] know, if I've got $10,000 of Nvidia, I
[14:56] can't do anything with it, right? I can
[14:58] pledge it for a margin loan, great. But
[15:00] I can't pledge it for a home loan, I
[15:02] can't take cash out against it. Uh if
[15:04] the stock loan gets tight, I get no
[15:06] yield. Mhm.
[15:06] >> But if I own the if I hold the um the
[15:09] blockchain native token, I can enter
[15:11] into a smart contract either on Figure
[15:13] or another platform, earn yield. Um I
[15:16] can take that and um take cash against
[15:18] it. I can use as a home loan. You know,
[15:21] it's got utility to me that just a stock
[15:23] in a stock um portfolio has very little
[15:26] utility apart from collateral for
[15:29] margin. Today's episode is brought to
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[17:44] It's fascinating to see. Um on one hand
[17:46] you've got crypto assets that are trying
[17:49] to get into the regulated system. On the
[17:51] other hand you've got things like a
[17:52] hyperlquid or something right that's
[17:53] trying to basically create uh the like
[17:56] cryptonative decentralized you know
[17:58] version and both are working. I think
[18:00] that's the part like to me that's the
[18:02] biggest thing is it's not either or it's
[18:03] both it seems
[18:04] >> and you saw on you know one of the
[18:05] biggest traded contracts on hyper liquid
[18:07] was oil. So people like permissionless.
[18:09] There'll be a certain sector of the
[18:11] investor base and the client base who
[18:12] always want to do permissionless stuff.
[18:14] And then there's people who want to
[18:15] trade on a platform that's secure,
[18:17] that's guaranteed they can and they're
[18:19] used to using the tools for stocks. Um
[18:22] so what we didn't rush into crypto, we
[18:24] took our time.
[18:25] >> So we wanted to try and um you know
[18:28] bring some rigor, discipline,
[18:29] transparency to the process and just
[18:31] make trading crypto just like trading
[18:33] stocks.
[18:34] >> What about with the options? Like it
[18:35] seems like retail investors have, you
[18:36] know, really flocked to options trading.
[18:38] Um zero day options now are the most
[18:40] popular option. Um there's, you know,
[18:43] potential pitfalls with so many people
[18:45] trading options, but it does feel like
[18:46] this is a huge part of uh the market.
[18:48] >> Yeah, we we spe our option product is
[18:51] probably the strongest product we have
[18:52] and that's kind of our one of our
[18:54] advantages over the some of our
[18:55] competition is some of the tools we
[18:57] have. We have so I've been trading
[18:58] options for 35 plus years. You know,
[19:01] people say AI and tools will take your
[19:03] job. All my knowledge is worth zero
[19:06] right now. All that experience is worth
[19:08] nothing.
[19:08] >> We have a thing called option strategy
[19:10] builder where you say I'm very bullish
[19:12] bullish, neutral, bearish, very bearish.
[19:15] >> You can set a slider for your risk
[19:17] tolerance um for your um for the tenor
[19:20] you want to go out and it will just
[19:21] build you the strategy and show you all
[19:25] the payoffs all in um image format. And
[19:29] then you can just uh slide the strike
[19:31] slide um whether you want to take more
[19:33] risk or less risk and it will build a
[19:35] strategy and you can click trade it
[19:37] straight through the interface. So it's
[19:40] almost uh obiscating away some of the
[19:42] technical components of it and you're
[19:44] more so the user interface is making it
[19:46] much easier to interact with
[19:46] >> because you can just see your payoffs
[19:48] and then for zero DTES as you know you
[19:50] know gamma goes to infinity
[19:52] five to four and so one thing we have we
[19:55] have a trading stop on zero DTE
[19:58] >> so I use that I never enter into a zero
[20:01] TT but a trading stop especially because
[20:04] you want to catch that wizoo right you
[20:05] want to go it's 10 cents it's not it's a
[20:07] $150 um but then It's $150 and it's 10
[20:10] cents again.
[20:10] >> So I use tra I use our trading stops
[20:13] >> so I know if it goes up and it's down by
[20:14] 10 I'm out.
[20:15] >> Yeah. How important is it that you're
[20:16] trading on the platform as well?
[20:18] >> I make all the mistakes. So like this is
[20:20] what the uh your normal average uh
[20:22] trader will do. So I I use it and you
[20:25] know we have everything we do is we have
[20:27] this system called andon. I think it
[20:28] came from Toyota that um every change we
[20:31] make is driven by clients. So people
[20:33] make suggestions, I make suggestions
[20:35] that goes when it's a certain level goes
[20:37] straight to our product guys and then
[20:38] they start. So it's not we it's not like
[20:41] I'm thinking this would be a great
[20:42] feature. It's when people ask for the
[20:43] features.
[20:44] >> Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. But you as the uh leader
[20:48] of the business, you are like touching
[20:50] the problem, right? Yeah. Yeah. It feels
[20:53] like that would be pretty important.
[20:54] >> Yeah. So I I make suggestions and we can
[20:56] do this better. Here's what I'd like to
[20:57] see. And then it goes we to a group of
[20:59] people. We discuss and then Yeah. But we
[21:02] we actually turn out product really
[21:04] quickly. We got 4,000 you got 4,000
[21:07] people um globally 3,000 of them are in
[21:10] product development and um yeah product
[21:13] and dev.
[21:14] >> You've made a huge push into these IPO
[21:16] allocations and really advocated for
[21:18] retail investors to get bigger and
[21:19] bigger portions. What have you seen
[21:21] there in that effort? Yeah, I mean we've
[21:22] had most success with with people like
[21:24] Mike Kagny, Mike Bell because they're
[21:26] disruptive people by nature. And so they
[21:29] look at, you know, they made their money
[21:30] by looking at a a legacy ecosystem
[21:32] saying that doesn't make sense. I can do
[21:34] that better, cheaper, faster. Um so they
[21:37] look at the, you know, um you go to an
[21:40] investment bank and you have to pay them
[21:42] to tell you your price should be this so
[21:44] they can send it to their institutional
[21:46] um clients and there's a conflict of
[21:48] interest there or people can see that as
[21:50] a conflict of interest. So we went
[21:52] directly to these guys or we went
[21:53] through uh some of the banks. We said
[21:55] listen um we can show you all the data.
[21:57] Retail is not the idea the narrative
[21:59] that retail is a flipper is not the
[22:01] case. So we have all the data. If I take
[22:04] a figure or bullish for example we've
[22:06] been net buyers of the stock every week
[22:08] since the IPO.
[22:09] >> Interesting.
[22:10] >> So we have more people who hold the
[22:11] stock now than actually we got
[22:13] allocation for.
[22:14] >> Yeah. I mean great great for those
[22:15] businesses. Right.
[22:16] >> And we and we get huge amounts of
[22:17] demand. Bitco $200 million deal. Well, I
[22:20] know it's down uh from its its price,
[22:22] but we had like almost $700 million of
[22:25] um demand.
[22:26] >> Wow. Um you've been friends with Jordi
[22:30] Visser for a long time. Jord's a star of
[22:32] the show. We might have to change it to
[22:34] Pomp and Jordy show. Um but
[22:36] >> Jordy and Pompa maybe.
[22:38] >> Yeah. At this point, why even have my
[22:40] name in it? This is a Jordy show. Um
[22:42] talk a little bit about the early days
[22:44] of Morgan Stanley and your career and
[22:46] kind of what you learned there. And then
[22:47] also I think Citadel is a pretty
[22:49] interesting place that you know most
[22:51] people with your pedigree and experience
[22:54] they don't kind of flip over on the
[22:55] other side of the table and I think it's
[22:56] very fascinating. You worked at some of
[22:58] these places that are you know uh very
[23:00] well respected for a long time for the
[23:02] culture they built the quality of the
[23:03] people the tools they built. So talk a
[23:04] little bit about that.
[23:05] >> Yeah I what I remember about Gman's
[23:08] Morgan Stanley JP Morgan said I think
[23:10] culture was the main thing. There was a
[23:12] culture of excellence of uh being humble
[23:15] um never thinking you're right all the
[23:17] time collaboration. So when I joined
[23:19] Goldman there was maybe 4,000 people
[23:21] globally when it was still a partnership
[23:23] >> and it felt like you were part of
[23:25] something that that was really really
[23:26] important to me and I've been looking to
[23:28] work at places that have had that kind
[23:29] of
[23:30] >> uh it doesn't feel too corporate.
[23:33] Obviously they're large banks but you
[23:34] know within groups of people you're
[23:36] working with very smart people who are
[23:38] all trying to get to the same point.
[23:39] >> Mhm. So, uh, Mumu is is exactly like
[23:42] that. It feels like a startup. It feels
[23:44] exciting. So, when I've been at the
[23:46] banks, I've always done the more cutting
[23:48] edge stuff. So, with Jordi, when I was
[23:49] at Morgan Stanley, uh, we were index
[23:51] option traders together. I was doing
[23:52] Europe, he was doing the S&P,
[23:54] >> and then when the, um, when the ISC was
[23:58] formed in 99, the first electronic
[23:59] options exchange, uh, I co-led that
[24:02] group. So, I got into the automated
[24:04] market making, and then that led to the
[24:06] the quant algo trading at Citadel and at
[24:08] JP Morgan. built globally their
[24:10] electronic market making business. So
[24:12] the tools to trade have always been
[24:13] something I've been interested in.
[24:15] >> And then that kind of was natural when
[24:17] it comes to someone like Mumu that feels
[24:18] like a startup. Um a bunch of super
[24:21] smart people all working really hard. Uh
[24:25] a lack of egos. It's it's it's the
[24:27] favorite place. It's I would say it's
[24:29] it's my favorite place to have worked in
[24:31] all of my career. Yeah.
[24:32] >> Wow. And when you think about uh this
[24:36] business, I think one of the things
[24:37] that's really interesting is you've got
[24:38] a lot of fronts that you've got to uh
[24:40] kind of manage, right? You've obvious
[24:41] got the internal team and the culture
[24:42] and things that every business has to
[24:44] deal with. You're building technology.
[24:46] So there's all the product and dev work
[24:48] that you got to do, but you're building
[24:49] it in a dynamic environment where, you
[24:51] know, 10 years ago crypto wasn't a thing
[24:53] really uh for a lot of these platforms.
[24:55] Now it's tokenization, prediction
[24:57] market. I mean, it's just every day
[24:58] there's something new. And then you've
[24:59] also got to deal with regulation on top
[25:01] of that. And so talk about how do you
[25:03] like like what does your normal day look
[25:05] like? How do you handle so much
[25:06] complexity?
[25:07] >> I think that's a good point. So we're a
[25:09] fintech company but we're a broker
[25:10] dealer, right? So it's it's you can't be
[25:12] like a fintech that just throws things
[25:13] against the wall and breaks things and
[25:16] because you can't cuz if you break one
[25:17] thing and people can't trade, you're out
[25:18] of business, right? And then you know
[25:20] we're regulated by FINRA uh registered
[25:23] with the SEC. Um so we you know a large
[25:26] part of our US offers is compliance,
[25:28] >> right? [clears throat] So it's
[25:29] protecting the customer. um AML stuff.
[25:32] So, we're we're super tight on that
[25:34] stuff. It's a useful discipline to work
[25:36] within a highly regulated environment.
[25:38] It protects our clients. It protects us.
[25:40] Um and so, we're trying to bring that
[25:42] kind of as I said, rigor, compliance,
[25:44] transparency, discipline. I'm trying to
[25:46] bring that to new new classes. It's the
[25:48] first time in history I've never know. I
[25:50] don't know what next year will look
[25:51] like. It's super exciting.
[25:53] >> It's exciting, but it's also you got to
[25:55] try to figure it out. So, like what how
[25:56] do you try to figure it out?
[25:57] >> Yeah. So uh not rushing in not rushing
[26:00] into the next. So we we think long and
[26:02] hard. We think uh why us? Why this? Why
[26:05] now?
[26:05] >> And so they have those three questions
[26:07] have to be have to be answered. Is it
[26:09] the right thing for our clients? Is it
[26:11] the right timing for us? Are we the
[26:12] right people to do this? Can we deliver
[26:14] something different?
[26:15] >> Mhm. And so when you look at these new
[26:17] technologies that are coming out, uh one
[26:19] of the other things I think is really
[26:20] interesting is like who the quotequote
[26:22] retail investor or this like I call them
[26:24] independent investor is has really
[26:25] changed. It used to be, you know,
[26:26] somebody with five bucks. These people
[26:29] are wealthy now.
[26:30] >> These people are wealthy.
[26:31] >> Talk a little bit like who that user is.
[26:33] >> Yeah. I mean, it's that 25 to 42. Uh
[26:36] some of the money's come down from their
[26:37] parents. You know, there's that whole
[26:38] waterfall from uh from the boomers,
[26:41] >> but they're smart. I mean, they're not
[26:42] your average. They're not the retail
[26:44] investor of even 10 years ago.
[26:46] >> Um again, it's about educating yourself.
[26:48] So, you know, you can have all the best
[26:50] tools in the world, but if you don't
[26:51] teach people how to use them, they make
[26:53] it makes no sense. M so our our
[26:55] investors say our average AUM is much
[26:58] higher than our US competition. Um they
[27:01] tend to be buy and hold. They're not
[27:03] they don't they're not going crazy on
[27:05] zero DTE. They have the tools and we do
[27:07] have uh some active traders on the
[27:09] platform. Uh but generally
[27:12] um the I'm always amazed by their
[27:14] fortitude, right? they and that's part
[27:16] of being in the community stuff. But we
[27:18] have people who've bought Nvidia Jan 23
[27:21] at like below 20 bucks and all they've
[27:23] done is buy dips all the way down and
[27:26] then when it's a bit extended they'll
[27:28] sell sell credit spreads when it's
[27:29] coming off again they'll sell you know
[27:31] um put spreads so they're pretty
[27:34] sophisticated they're sophisticated they
[27:36] don't panic
[27:37] >> you know that's um you know I kind of
[27:40] make the joke that uh my wife's not
[27:42] going to fire me from my 401k right if I
[27:44] have a bad quarter but you know if you
[27:46] if you're an opponent millennium or your
[27:48] overleverag hedge fund. You have a bad
[27:50] quarter, you're out, you're down 5%,
[27:51] you've lost, right? So my um our clients
[27:55] will take draw downs and see it as
[27:58] opportunity. Talk a little bit more
[28:00] about like take the pods, right? And
[28:01] whether Citadel or anywhere else um or
[28:03] Millennium um I don't think people quite
[28:06] understand the risk limits and how uh
[28:09] kind of unemotional the decision-m there
[28:11] is. So so talk just a little bit.
[28:12] >> It's completely automated. So if you're
[28:13] a PM and you're running a strategy, you
[28:15] have to show your sharps above like 2.6
[28:17] I think it is for for say millennium. I
[28:20] don't want to quote Izzy here, but 2.6
[28:22] is 10. You know, you have to show a
[28:23] track record and then they'll give you
[28:25] money. Absolutely. And if you do well,
[28:27] you get paid.
[28:28] >> The downside is they start to gate you
[28:30] down two and a half, three and down
[28:32] five, you're out and they just stop you
[28:34] out and you wipe down.
[28:35] >> Yeah. So like let's say you're I don't
[28:37] know made $100 million. Once you're down
[28:39] 5% it's over.
[28:41] >> That's over.
[28:42] >> Yeah. And it's really a culture of
[28:44] >> I mean if you're up you know if you're
[28:45] up a 100 I think they scale it. So but
[28:48] if you're down five below average zero
[28:50] then you definitely are.
[28:51] >> Yeah. And so it's interesting because
[28:53] they're doing this across you know in
[28:54] some cases hundreds of pods and it
[28:56] really just becomes this like automated
[28:58] big risk mitigation you know.
[29:00] >> It's great. I mean it it's you know
[29:02] they're getting paid on the picks and
[29:03] shovels and other people are taking a
[29:05] risk.
[29:06] >> Mhm.
[29:06] >> So it's a great business model.
[29:08] >> Mhm. Yeah. That's pretty uh it's pretty
[29:09] interesting
[29:09] >> assuming that you've got really tight
[29:11] risk limits and that you can liquidate
[29:12] down five.
[29:13] >> Well, that's the other thing you get
[29:14] into these correlations and you know um
[29:16] I I always uh I yearn for the old school
[29:20] like cowboy risktakers.
[29:22] >> They're they're not working in any pod
[29:23] shops, right? Because these guys might
[29:24] go down 20% and you know make it all
[29:26] back in a single trade. Um, but I do
[29:28] think that the rise of the pod shops
[29:31] mirrors the rise of the sophisticated
[29:32] investor where everyone is becoming much
[29:35] more informed and understands some of
[29:38] the pitfalls of financial markets
[29:40] together. Um, and you know, Twitter X
[29:42] has been a huge part of that. But, but
[29:44] it does feel like the pod shops have
[29:46] really hit their stride and become super
[29:48] sophisticated. Retail has as well.
[29:50] Again, it's not saying a retail investor
[29:52] is like a pod shop, but um there just
[29:54] feels like overall the market is getting
[29:56] smarter.
[29:57] >> Yeah. I mean, again, it's an education
[29:59] process. We've got 2,000 videos and
[30:01] stuff on the platform trying to take
[30:03] people from,
[30:04] >> you know, trading 101 to to using algos
[30:07] to using uh back testing environments to
[30:09] using the tools. The gap between the guy
[30:11] at Millennium Citadel and the
[30:14] sophisticated retail retail trader has
[30:16] never been narrower and AI is making
[30:18] that really really tight. Interesting.
[30:20] What What do you like lay awake at night
[30:23] over? What What What are the challenges?
[30:25] >> Um
[30:27] >> other than the Mets not being good or
[30:30] the Mets being seven and 11. Just
[30:32] kidding.
[30:32] >> They've got to play one more game in in
[30:34] LA as well.
[30:36] >> As a Yankees fan, I can, you know, give
[30:38] a little
[30:38] >> They're going to be They're going to be
[30:39] seven and 12.
[30:41] >> They're going to be seven and 12 by this
[30:42] evening. [laughter]
[30:43] >> I I won't be watching the late game
[30:45] tonight. Um uh regulation whereas that's
[30:49] going clarity act I really care about.
[30:51] Regulators are having to move quicker
[30:53] than I think it makes them comfortable.
[30:55] The the world is changing so quickly.
[30:58] >> We got lots of initiatives with the AI
[31:00] stuff and with our tools. Um and it's
[31:03] just can can we keep up? Can we keep
[31:06] giving our guys the tools that they
[31:07] need?
[31:08] >> Mhm. So, you know, we we we most of our
[31:10] money goes in R&D and product
[31:12] development and we're just hoping that,
[31:14] you know, we keep telling
[31:15] >> the engineers like super AIDS and
[31:17] they're all just like running wild with
[31:18] all the models and everything.
[31:19] >> So, we have some like that and we have a
[31:21] whole section there. We got remember we
[31:23] we've got to run a broker dealer. So, we
[31:24] need the safe boring infrastructure
[31:27] >> um sci stuff all the stuff you need and
[31:30] then we've got the more fun stuff which
[31:32] is the AI
[31:33] >> um and the people coding the fun stuff.
[31:36] But a lot of it is just making sure
[31:37] we're up all the time like for for
[31:40] figure for the we make marketers 245 in
[31:43] the we make marketers we give access 245
[31:45] to figure D to the token.
[31:47] >> Mhm.
[31:47] >> So that was a big step for us and then
[31:49] so we we have to be up all the time. So
[31:51] >> my worry is uh at some point something
[31:54] happens and we go down.
[31:55] >> Do you sleep?
[31:56] >> I do sleep. Yeah. Yeah. I sleep a lot
[31:58] more as CEO of Muma than I ever slept at
[32:00] Citadel Jim World. Why?
[32:02] >> Cuz I'm not running risk.
[32:03] >> I'm running risk. I care about my my
[32:05] clients and reputational risk and they
[32:07] make sure the platform's up.
[32:08] >> Yeah. Yeah. But not like a book.
[32:10] >> Not like a book. Yeah.
[32:11] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting though
[32:12] that actually there you felt much more
[32:15] uh kind of pressure to uh on the risk
[32:17] side of the the book versus the uh
[32:19] >> Yeah. I mean especially because there's
[32:21] so much more information at weekends
[32:23] now.
[32:24] >> So if I was running a huge global
[32:26] options book and then you know something
[32:28] happens on a Saturday
[32:30] >> we got a guy at the White House. He
[32:31] likes to do stuff on Friday, Saturday,
[32:32] [laughter] Sunday. You know, I mean I
[32:34] would he suspiciously waits till market
[32:36] clos on Friday and starts firing off
[32:37] information.
[32:38] >> I would never be not running slides.
[32:39] >> Yeah. You know, but back then you
[32:42] mentioned Monte College before.
[32:43] >> We used to run those overnight
[32:45] >> on bare metal servers,
[32:47] >> right? [clears throat] Um and the fact
[32:48] on our platform you can click and just
[32:50] run a whole back test is is
[32:52] >> crazy. Yeah. Yeah. That's
[32:54] democratization right at it finest.
[32:56] >> And then you you can share them with
[32:57] people.
[32:58] >> Yeah. Yeah. So you see you see in our
[32:59] chat every day if you take video people
[33:02] just pulling their trades up and their
[33:03] wins, their losses
[33:05] >> and there's a feeling of being part of
[33:06] something, you know, in a big trading
[33:08] venue.
[33:09] >> Yeah.
[33:09] >> Uh rather than just being in your
[33:10] bedroom or in the kitchen or
[33:12] >> Yeah. I love it. I love it. All right.
[33:14] Well, thank you for taking the time to
[33:15] do this. If you guys want the best
[33:17] trading experience, go to Mumu. Go check
[33:18] them out and we'll do this again in the
[33:20] future.
[33:20] >> Anthony, thank you.