Jordi Visser con Anthony Pompliano: IA, confianza y tokenización, tiempo de máquina y una cartera con mucho peso en Bitcoin, computación para IA y cripto

[1:08:21] Anthony Pompliano: Sound good? All right. Awesome. Now we get to listen to smart people. Jordi, get up here. Let's go. Dude, I thought I was preserving my voice from last night. I might lose my voice talking up here to you guys. All right. The smartest man in New York City, ladies and gentlemen.

[1:08:46] Jordi Visser: All right. And as the smartest man, I need to correct some things that you just talked about.

[1:08:51] ?: I knew he was here. You see me laying the bait?

[1:08:54] Anthony Pompliano: All right. What did you disagree with what I said?

[1:08:56] ?: It's not disagreeing. I want to make sure. So he agrees. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[1:09:01] Jordi Visser: But you said something referring to something I said. So so everyone knows rates do matter. OK, like if you go to borrow money right now, trust me, he said they don't matter. All right. No, no, no. Now let's go through some things. So if you go back five years ago today, that was before the Fed started raising rates. So we were at zero. Tenure rates were about 1.5%. So if you just take the performance of stocks since that day, anything related to home building is down. Anything related to retail is down. I can keep going on. Autos, consumer staples, it's all down. Technology is up 180%. Semiconductors are up 300%. So the economy has changed. Dramatically because the weightings of these companies are based on innovation. And so as you're hearing these things and you're reading them, there's nothing wrong for people to say this is the every time we've had this happen since 1970, the market goes down. It's fine for them to say that because before 2007, it would have mattered. That the market would have reacted a certain way, but everything has changed since the great financial crisis because it coincided with the launch of the iPhone. So I just want to make sure that we get that one there. Second thing, Bitcoin, okay? You made the statement and you're talking about money printing. I just want to make sure because this is a pet peeve of mine in the Bitcoin community. Money printing didn't just start when the white paper came out. It's been going on for a long time. You guys have probably... You've been in your pool as a child and you played a stupid game called Marco Polo. Marco Polo actually identified the first money printing known and that was in the 1200s in China. So you can go back and look and go read the history books and go see that he came in from Venice where gold and silver was the currency. He got to Kublai Khan. And he literally looked and said, wait, what is this stuff that you're getting from a mulberry bark of a tree? And the government was forcing people to use this for currency and then they would take the gold that was exchanged for that. So the money printing has been happening way before Bitcoin, my friend. You guys didn't invent this. This is not something that actually came out of that. In fact, what's the first line of the white paper?

[1:11:37] Anthony Pompliano: Listen, I know that the money printing started before. We're just the ones smart enough to tell everyone about it.

[1:11:42] Jordi Visser: But the first line of the Bitcoin white paper on a peer-to-peer system is to avoid financial institutions and not trust anyone. And so we're at a different stage. And the reason that's important, if you take the rate side, what's worked? AI, exponential innovation. If you take the Bitcoin side, it is a technology, it is an innovation, and we are at the agentic side where trust breaks down.

[1:12:01] Anthony Pompliano: Okay, so this is very interesting because I feel like we could sit up here, we could be performative and ask, I could ask like these layup questions and be real dumb. Or I could actually ask him things that I want to know. And just so people know, when we do our episode every single week, we try our best not to talk during the week, which is kind of weird, because then we get to talk on Friday and get it all out. But we're going to violate our rule today. So you're talking about trust, AI agents, and you've talked previously in episodes about this idea of the blockchain could be one of those ways. I've been fascinated with... These introductions of what I'll call agent to agent trusted protocols or agent to agent trusted systems. So Instinct came out with one. There's been a couple of others recently that have gotten announced where my agent and your agent, they don't know a difference between you and I. They may know that we know each other, but we can explicitly say, hey, Pom's agent, trust Jordi's agent. Now you guys are in a cabal together. You guys can work together. How does that play into your view as to the role of blockchain or these agents and kind of how this is all coming together? It really feels like trust is now becoming this central focus point, which I think you've been hitting on for the last couple of months.

[1:13:11] Jordi Visser: Trust, privacy, and community. Those are going to be the three things that are going to permeate throughout the way the ecosystem is going to change, in my opinion, because of the impact that AI has on this. All of those things fit directly into... Thank you for joining us. Crypto at the beginning because of cryptography, because of AI and their beliefs on what was coming. And so the fact that all of these things have come into it, it is a function of when you see more hackings happening because of AI swarms, we're at the moment where all of this stuff matters. If it wasn't for that, it wouldn't matter. So the way I've always viewed everything is there's these hurdles that we hit to where the importance starts to grow. If we didn't reach the point. We've changed as a country from where it was in the 1970s as well. 100% of cars were gas. We're now at about 90% between electric and hybrid. All FSD cars, full self-driving cars, of which they're about to explode, will be electric. Gas powered houses, natural gas, is now three quarters of the houses in the United States. And natural gas prices are down year over year. So these are the kind of stats and the changes that happen. So when we hit a hurdle that Anthony talks about, where we actually reached a point where trust, privacy, and in my opinion, community become the way businesses are run, it gets to the point I've tried to make, which is there's no more moats because those things all break down. You want to deal with people that you know. You want to make sure that you're only involved with people that... You can require, and that means people are going to have to be driven more towards the blockchain because it's the only way to truly know who you're dealing with.

[1:15:31] Anthony Pompliano: Now, when you think about Bitcoin and AI, people have historically thought about these as two different industries, two different asset classes to kind of invest in. I think you now look at Bitcoin as like the purest AI trade.

[1:15:42] ?: Explain that a little bit more.

[1:15:45] Jordi Visser: Yeah, because there's two parts of AI. I get asked this question a lot, and everyone focuses on the one side, and that's because everyone tries to make money on things. So clearly, if Bitcoin was the way people think about it, it hasn't performed as well in the last year as Micron or as most semiconductor stocks. So how can it be an AI thing? But that's because people get caught in this short-term phenomena of making money, and then they go, well, that must be what it is. When we get five years from now, If what I envision happening happens, what I just gave you as numbers, imagine if you had all of your money invested in these interest rate sensitive sectors and you were down over five years while inflation during that period has probably compounded at 30, 40 percent. So you've been debased because you invested in the wrong thing. What has happened in the S&P 500 this year is pretty astonishing. We're growing at close to 30 percent year over year earnings. But the S&P is not up 30%. It's barely up 13 as of yesterday, 14.

[1:16:51] ?: So what's happening? Multiples are compressing.

[1:16:54] Jordi Visser: And the reason they're compressing is because five years from now. The disruption won't be about a SaaS apocalypse. It'll be about every single company because every public stock has one thing that is very, very dangerous to AI, which is bureaucracy. Anything with bureaucracy, with friction, with inside the walls is going to suffer to small entrepreneurs. And those entrepreneurs are going to build businesses. That's why tokenization is so important. So you have the positive side of AI, which is, OK, money's happening. We have liquidity. We have all these things which, in the end, should benefit. The positive side of Bitcoin, plus we're going more peer-to-peer. But on the flip side, I think the most beneficial thing is the moat on time. The longer time, five years from now, the more you have to bring humanoids into the equation, the more that you have to bring disruptions that are far beyond anyone's comprehension and things that they could think about today. That's coming soon and that will disrupt all physical companies and all software companies. And so your investments are going to have to be diverse, not just in real estate, not just in stock. Sylvia is going to have to make sure you can buy small, tiny businesses as well, tokenization.

[1:18:02] Anthony Pompliano: Talk a little bit about this idea of like machine time. I think it's probably one of the most fascinating ideas that you've told me over the last year. And as we transition from human time to machine time, I think everyone feels it. But people don't really know what the ramifications are. You know, I've talked nonstop to friends and they're like, you know, I'm working harder than I've ever worked. I feel like everything is accelerating. I can't keep up with everything being launched. Like, you just feel this acceleration, you know, kind of persistently there. How does that impact people's portfolio? How do you think differently about various asset classes?

[1:18:34] Jordi Visser: Yeah, the simplest mathematical way to do this, and for people who use AI and actually have agents, they already know this. But next year, this becomes a massive thing. GDP, the way it's calculated at the end of the day, is a human-based time mechanism. So it depends on all of you going out and buying coffee and doing all this stuff. Well, you could have your agents running for you, transacting all day long, constantly. And that adds a lot of time in the day. So when we go to stock trading, that's 24-7. When we go to people working at businesses that are 24-7, at the end of the day, consumption, everything GDP is a factor of time. Agents don't sleep. So that means consumption is going to be happening 24 hours a day. So by definition, if you go through 34, the average weekly hours released from the non-farm payroll report, it's 34 hours. And I've done this in presentations and I do it around the world. You're talking about five times the amount of working hours that will be happening in a day purely based on no sleep, no pantry visits, no flirting, all the things that I've said that go on in offices. But then you also get the productivity side. AI is smarter than all of us. So it gets things done faster. It takes less time to do the same things that we used to do. And so you're going to have a lot more happening. And that's why when people like Elon Musk say, well, we're definitely next year going to be at... I don't know, double digit GDP. He's saying that a lot more transactions are going to happen because the people that are doing the transactions, there's going to be less friction. And I just give you one example as like something to think about. If you've purchased a home in this place and had to go through the mortgage process, the settlement, what? It takes a long time for a house to close and to go from beginning to end, the amount of mouths that you feed between the insurance agent, the real estate broker, the lawyer, every single person that gets involved, the bankers, it's a very, very slow process. You are going to have the ability of having that close much faster because of AI, but then you're also going to be able to immediately take that home because it'll be tokenized and you can go borrow on it immediately without having to go to a bank and get... Go through the process of getting cash for it to get a home equity loan. All of that's gonna happen in the next five years. And so you think about how all of those assets become effectively liquid overnight. The M2 is gonna explode in the world because all of those assets become just like money.

[1:21:08] ?: Let's give the people what they want.

[1:21:10] Anthony Pompliano: How is your portfolio? You know what the people want? 100%. They want to make money. How is your portfolio constructed right now? Like when you think about asset classes or specific stocks or crypto tokens, like just walk us through maybe how your portfolio is constructed and then why

[1:21:25] ?: is it constructed that way?

[1:21:28] Jordi Visser: Okay, the majority of my net worth is in Bitcoin. Now, that's, but again, for anyone who's had money in Bitcoin long enough.

[1:21:37] ?: My work here is done, folks.

[1:21:40] Jordi Visser: That usually happens through price appreciation. So when an asset class appreciates and you never sell it, you just buy more whenever you believe it just gets bigger. So let's take it back down and go through just crypto versus stocks, non-Bitcoin. Before a year ago, the only part of crypto that I owned was Bitcoin. So I was definitely more of a macro maxi in terms of the way I thought about things. AI is macro. So you also said macro doesn't matter. Macro matters. AI is macro. It's impacting the entire economy, which makes it macro. AI was the dominant portion of my portfolio in terms of AI stocks from a year, let's say the beginning of last year, all the way until June of this year. I started writing a lot, and for those of you who watch my videos, in May, June of this year, I basically started saying, okay, that's it for the fireworks show. We're done with the most explosive time we will have in AI. Now, the reason is I only believe in one stock investment, safety-wise, for me, outside of Eli Lilly. So Eli Lilly is my... Now biggest stock holding again. I'm a very big believer in life extension, but I'm a very big believer in what they're doing, what Ozempic slash Monjaro slash all these things need, but especially for Eli Lilly. The rest of the stock stuff is all AI compute. And so you guys hear this forever and ever from me, and I've said it on stage for years now. There will never be enough compute for the demand side of AI.

[1:23:13] ?: You can... Book it. You can go through.

[1:23:15] Jordi Visser: When you start seeing the satellites up there with data centers, we will still be demanding more. It doesn't mean we won't eventually reach a point where the compute side is stable. But remember, oil, we've demanded more oil forever. It's just a sign of economic growth. We will never, ever, ever run into enough supply. That we won't have to build more data centers. And that's why oil, we have to produce more oil all the time. So this is not like a guess to me. We need that much compute. And every day you read a story about how much AI is a bubble, that comes from people who've already made enough money that they can say that without any repercussions. They don't need to invest. So I challenge you when you start getting sucked into these, oh my God, I heard this person, this person's so smart. If they're my age or older and they've made money, It's just like Bitcoin and what Michael Saylor says. You don't need Bitcoin, you don't buy Bitcoin. When you need Bitcoin is when you buy Bitcoin. For people who need to embrace AI, I think those people already feel the power of it because they're trying to do well. So AI makes up, AI compute makes up all of that right now. It's Marvell, it's Nvidia. Those are pretty much the two biggest. I have some Micron, I have some other optical names. But really the two biggest are Marvell and Nvidia. Marvell, I think, is the higher beta. Now. On the crypto side, I have moved outside of Bitcoin. I've expanded into, I think I own about 10 different tokens. I bought another one today. So I'm putting a lot of money each week into crypto. I don't expect this to go parabolic in the next two months. I think next year is the year for all of the crypto ecosystem to where the people that I've grown up with start to invest money there. They are doing their homework right now. Every single person that you listen to on a podcast, everyone in crypto says the same thing, which is people they never expected to actually knock on the door. They're knocking on the door every day and I'm having more and more conversations every week about it.

[1:25:20] ?: I own Marvell too. I appreciate it.

[1:25:25] Anthony Pompliano: The crypto tokens, like how deep down the crypto rabbit hole are you just like, hey, I own the top 10 tokens or are you like essentially name selecting or token selecting? The 50th one on the list because you have some thesis. How much of this is like active management almost versus, hey, I just think crypto in general is going up, so I'm kind of beta market top 10.

[1:25:47] Jordi Visser: When I find someone to actually tokenize my index of 46 names, then I will be only index oriented with a little bit of tokens. As of right now, I have, I'm definitely more of a layer one person. So I'm definitely a Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana. Near. These are the groups that I've basically got into. But I've started to go a little bit further down the rabbit hole. My thesis is on velocity of money. So the same way I said about AI compute, I want to bet on AI agents. But I want to bet on trading activity, on the velocity of money, on the velocity of trading. I think from the people I've met here, and there's some people I've met now over the course of the last three years at these events, it's a good community. The people who trade, particularly younger ones who realize that this is a way to add value to your pocketbooks, to actually get empowered, they use AI for everything and they trade.

[1:26:49] ?: Well, now we have agentic trading. And this is becoming a bigger thing.

[1:26:52] Jordi Visser: When I go to Robin Hood events and I meet the community, it's a very different feel than the world that I grew up in at Wall Street.

[1:26:58] ?: I'm not a natural Wall Street person. I was not supposed to be there.

[1:27:01] Jordi Visser: I did not go to an Ivy League school. I moved up the ranks at Morgan Stanley without an MBA, which was not normal for the time to both not be an Ivy Leaguer and not have an MBA. But because I wasn't that and because I had no fear of risk, I seemed to move up because they got the best of my brain. School didn't get the best of my brain. They did. And now I'm using it for different purposes. So for the token side, I'm spending about 80% of my podcast listening. If you guys watched the video last week, like most of it is becoming more crypto focused. And if you've gotten to know me, I grew up at the racetrack. When I see odds mispriced, I spend a lot of time doing my homework. And I think the odds are completely mispriced in the size of crypto.

[1:27:47] Anthony Pompliano: You can just tell them it's because you've been hanging out with me.

[1:27:49] ?: It's fine. What's that? It's just you've been hanging out with me. I have that effect on people.

[1:27:54] Anthony Pompliano: When you think of AI agents in financial markets, I think that there's a story that's very exciting of everyone's going to have this agentic trading and they're just going to unlock a bunch of opportunities. I think at the other time, there's a lot of people saying, well, does that mean that alpha and outperformance can go away and it's just agent on agent trading? How do you see maybe the impact on the market as agents? Proliferate into, you know, finance and investing.

[1:28:19] Jordi Visser: First of all, it's already happened. I think you had Neil McDonald. You're in a room. Okay. Neil and I worked. He's at Moomoo. So Neil's the CEO of North America Moomoo, which is a competitor of Robinhood, and it is the Robinhood of Asia. He was in the Wall Street Journal, and he said this to me privately, where he expects that 20% of Moomoo's trading will be agentic by the end of this year. So agentic trading is happening. Now, you have to be careful. Mumu is predominantly China-based or Asia-based. I think three-quarters of their users are over in Asia, and it's probably at least that in terms of the volume. The only reason that's important to your question is that I've had a lot of... Hedge fund managers and mutual fund managers that have reached the point where they want me to do presentations, not about what's going to work or what names and sectors to be involved in, but what the hell happened this year. And this has become an issue since really the beginning of the year where the agentic side, you had Micron. So to be wrong that much. It says something unique is going on, but it also left the mutual fund and the hedge fund community chasing into a rally which occurred so fast that by the time they got in, it turned around and went the other direction. And their average price of buying in, it immediately went back down to it. The reason that's important is you used to be able to do your homework and the market would wait for you. To get back to the machine time, which is the problem, agents don't wait around. The number one thing that agents care about is what's working right now. And they're involved and they're looking for opportunities. Retail is in a community talking about what's working right now. Hedge funds and mutual funds depend on reading research reports. You'll see them with the big bags still. They don't, I'm telling you, they're stuck in their ways. A lot of portfolio managers, not all of them, but a lot of them, and they want to read research reports. They want to have the analysts come in. They want their analysts to go to conferences. All of that takes a lot of time. And so I think what has happened, and you can already see it, is the windows of making alpha are just shrinking. And even if you're right on a name, the journey there is much more volatile than it was. And you know that because the narratives just keep shifting, which means they're getting knocked out. And then by the time they get knocked out, everything starts to work again.

[1:31:06] ?: We've got four minutes left.

[1:31:07] Anthony Pompliano: And I think of most people here. They really want to understand how you're thinking about the future and where all this is going. If we were all your children, which we kind of are, how would you tell us to kind of enter this new world? What should we do to prepare? How should we think about allocating capital? Are there things that maybe we need to unlearn from the past? And what would be kind of your guidance, if you will, of go forth children and succeed?

[1:31:41] Jordi Visser: So I've brought up, and the way I structured the way that my business runs is on Cigna Alpha Agency. So let me just give you guys and make sure you at least leave with that. Signal's really important. We're overwhelmed with a lot of information coming at us. Rates, breath, oil, wars, tariffs, just go through the list. And that information from the media side is, I mean, let's just face it, bare opinions sell. People love negative stuff. There's a reason why CNBC, I mean, everything starts with breaking news, even though it's the same news that's gone on all day. And it's because they're trying to get people scared. And this is the dopamine situation that happens with the smartphone. So I'm trying to bring a sense of calmness.

[1:32:36] ?: Bad things happen. I always tell the story of my grandmother.

[1:32:39] Jordi Visser: I tell the story of 9-11, my best friend dying. Like, you just get through life and you kind of deal with the things that happen. Someone who reached out before I came in here said, are you worried about crypto?

[1:32:53] ?: And I'm like, what are you talking about? Why would I be worried?

[1:32:55] Jordi Visser: Well, it's down today. And I literally said, I hope it doesn't move. And this is a serious thing. I hope it doesn't move for another six months. Because I want to accumulate more at these prices. Like, I'm not an impatient person. I believe AI agents are coming, and they're going to have an impact, and we need crypto to be a part of it. I also don't believe a recession can happen anymore. I also don't believe the market will crash. Do I think it can go down? Yes. Do I think the government would do what it needs to do to make it go higher? Yes, I do, because we watch this over and over again. So signal versus noise is the first thing, and hopefully you guys get a sense of calmness. The alpha side is the stuff I talked about. Crypto and AI compute are the dominant macro themes. They will be here for the next decade. Mark my words. We will never have enough compute, and crypto is necessary, and we finally have the users, which are agents. The fourth part, the agency part, to me is the most important. I really love teaching people. I really love sharing what I'm building, whether it's me giving prompts, whether it's me giving GitHub code. I don't really care what it is. But by showing you that a 59-year-old person whose father didn't graduate high school, who is a construction worker, I grew up in that house. So there's people here that whatever your securities, insecurities are, hopefully you realize anyone can do it. I've spent my time not knowing how to code. I've always had people work for me that did that work. So hopefully the agency side brings empowerment, and I will leave you with this. Since you asked and said these were all my children. Me too. I have four of them. Every single one of them, I have said, I want you to be independent. I want you to be empowered. I want you to make a relationship with nature. And if you do those three things and you just learn to smile by having those three things in there, you will learn how to be happy. And if you become dependent on things that don't involve the independent side, that don't involve the empowerment side, that don't involve nature, it's a much harder way to go through life. So I'm trying to make sure that people have those things.

[1:34:56] Anthony Pompliano: Damn, I thought I was going to be the fifth one. Anthony Visser would have been amazing. All right. Can you tell people real quick, 22V, the research that you're putting out and the YouTube video is probably the two best places I would think for folks to

[1:35:09] ?: go? Yeah.

[1:35:11] Jordi Visser: If you guys haven't watched me, you can find me on YouTube. And then, yeah, ai.22vresearch.com is where.

[1:35:31] ?: Jordi may not remember this.

[1:35:32] Anthony Pompliano: The first time him and I ever did a podcast episode was remote during COVID. If I could go back to that moment and be like, Jordi's going to be on stage, be like, you can find me on YouTube.

[1:35:41] ?: That would have been incredible. Jordi Visser, everybody.