Multiple Paths, One Asset: Spend, Borrow, or HODL? | Bitcoin 2026

[0:00] Let's go. You guys have brought a bit of
[0:02] the crowd in.
[0:03] Um
[0:04] This is going to be a fun panel. You
[0:05] guys, like Jack and Strike and Miles at
[0:07] Cash App and Square, you're kind of
[0:09] pushing the Bitcoin for payment side
[0:12] very strongly right now. And I think we
[0:14] should take a step back to start off
[0:15] with Jack. Like
[0:17] Bitcoin has had this dominant narrative
[0:19] over the last few years of being a store
[0:20] of value. But to me, Bitcoin is freedom
[0:23] money, and it has to be used as money.
[0:25] Like, why do you see that as such an
[0:26] important thing? Uh well, rule number
[0:29] one when you're on a panel is you don't
[0:31] ask the moderator questions back, but
[0:32] I'm going to break it. I think when I
[0:34] was thinking about doing the panel, I
[0:35] think you got to define money.
[0:38] I think a lot of the debate and a lot of
[0:41] the controversy is because people have
[0:43] different definitions of what money is.
[0:46] I have my own, I'm happy to go, but I'm
[0:48] more curious firstly to define money
[0:51] before we understand why or why not you
[0:54] should be using it in a certain way. So,
[0:56] I'm going to answer that question with
[0:57] another question.
[0:59] Let's go. But so, Bitcoin is money.
[1:01] Like, Bitcoin already works as money,
[1:03] but people aren't really using it as
[1:04] money as much as I would like to see.
[1:06] So, like I've I've traveled all over the
[1:08] world like doing the podcast. I've been
[1:09] to developing countries, and that's
[1:12] where I've seen Bitcoin actually being
[1:13] used as money. Um but I think in the
[1:15] West, we see it as this like store of
[1:17] value thing. And so, that's what I mean
[1:19] really when I say when is Bitcoin going
[1:20] to be become money? It's like, when is
[1:22] Bitcoin going to be used as money by
[1:24] people? As in, to buy things. Like, when
[1:26] are when are people going to go out and
[1:27] spend sats, not dollars?
[1:28] >> Yeah, so I So, my
[1:31] definition of money to be super
[1:32] succinct, or at least I'll try. I never
[1:34] am, but I'll try.
[1:35] Um
[1:36] money is uniquely the market good that
[1:38] you don't consume.
[1:41] That's it. So, if you, Danny, grow
[1:43] bananas and I have apples, and we want
[1:46] to directly exchange bananas for apples,
[1:48] that's called the coincidence of wants.
[1:49] You coincidentally want what I have,
[1:52] which are apples, and I coincidentally
[1:54] want what you have, which are bananas.
[1:56] Now, if you're growing bananas and I
[1:58] want some of your bananas and you don't
[1:59] want my apples, well, I'm shit out of
[2:01] luck. What do I do? Well, you want
[2:03] blueberries. So, I go find someone who
[2:06] has blueberries. I exchange my apples. I
[2:08] now have blueberries. I go now, what was
[2:10] the money in that scenario? It was the
[2:13] apples. I used the apples to transmit
[2:15] value. And so, for me, money is the
[2:18] market good. I don't live in it. I don't
[2:21] eat it. I don't fly it. I don't drive
[2:23] it. So, when people use real estate as
[2:25] money, I think that's bad money, right?
[2:27] So, Bitcoin to me is perfect money. I
[2:30] can't wear it in a rap video. I can't
[2:31] put it in jewelry. I can't eat it. I
[2:33] can't live in it. I can't fly it across
[2:35] the ocean. It's a market good that's
[2:37] perfect for allowing me to save and then
[2:40] later exchange
[2:42] the value I've created. So, the two use
[2:46] cases, in my opinion, for money are
[2:48] saving and then later exchanging. Why is
[2:51] the exchange part in the West
[2:53] lesser used than in other I think things
[2:56] like Gresham's Law,
[2:58] like for Stripe, payments for us are way
[3:00] more popular in some of the emerging
[3:03] markets. Lending for us in the United
[3:05] States is the biggest product we have
[3:07] and it's not even close. And I think
[3:09] things like Gresham's Law are going to
[3:11] naturally play out.
[3:13] So, I don't know if that answers the
[3:14] question, but
[3:16] I don't I don't I don't know if using
[3:17] money implies you need to spend it. I
[3:20] have a personal opinion of why I want
[3:22] that to happen and why I inevitably
[3:23] think that will happen, but I don't
[3:25] think it's a violation to use Bitcoin
[3:28] with like a line of credit or a loan and
[3:30] spend the depreciating, debasing,
[3:33] shitcoin dollar. Yeah, no, that does
[3:35] make sense. And you did at least
[3:37] partially answer the question cuz like
[3:38] holding Bitcoin is still using Bitcoin.
[3:40] Um, but Miles, like you both Cash App
[3:43] and Square have done tons to try and
[3:45] push this forward as a I guess maybe
[3:47] currency is a better word, as something
[3:49] that people are using in exchange for
[3:50] goods. And Square rolled out Bitcoin
[3:52] payments to every merchant in America,
[3:54] which is absolutely amazing. I need you
[3:56] to bring that to to Australia, but like
[3:59] with this
[4:01] Let's go. Let's go. Um
[4:03] with this, I think there's um
[4:06] in my opinion, there's always been like
[4:07] a chicken and egg problem with this
[4:08] where like I I've seen
[4:11] restaurants and bars and and things like
[4:12] that in my in my city put the Bitcoin
[4:14] accepted here sticker in, and then over
[4:17] time people aren't really using it cuz
[4:18] it requires a Bitcoiners go out and
[4:21] basically sell Bitcoin to these
[4:22] merchants and try and explain why it's
[4:24] good money. Um like how do you see that
[4:26] chicken and egg problem in what you've
[4:28] done?
[4:29] Sure.
[4:31] Uh so, at Block,
[4:33] one of our company missions is to make a
[4:35] Bitcoin everyday money. And I think
[4:38] in implied in that is the title of
[4:41] Satoshi's original white paper,
[4:43] peer-to-peer electronic cash. And so,
[4:47] maybe we're biased cuz we run a consumer
[4:49] app and we run a large merchant app, but
[4:52] I think that payment to use case feels
[4:54] embedded in the original mission of
[4:56] Bitcoin
[4:57] to us at least, and embedded in the
[5:00] foundational premise of our company as
[5:02] well.
[5:03] And I think the title of this panel is
[5:06] probably it's a little it's not not rage
[5:09] bait isn't an exaggeration, but I
[5:11] actually don't think there's that much
[5:12] of a debate here. I think Jack and I
[5:15] both agree that that's a really
[5:17] important use case, the payments one.
[5:20] But it's one that's going to take the
[5:21] longest to achieve.
[5:24] It's
[5:25] to me, it's
[5:26] the one of the like maybe the hardest
[5:28] thing in the world to overturn and put
[5:32] in place a new global financial system.
[5:35] And I think us as Bitcoiners, while
[5:37] we're low time preference a lot of the
[5:38] time,
[5:40] interfacing with the community
[5:41] sometimes, it's like, "Hey, come on come
[5:43] on guys, make it happen make it happen."
[5:45] And it's something that it's going to
[5:46] take a long time, and we need to be
[5:48] really deliberate and intentional about
[5:50] how we're doing that. And so, we didn't
[5:53] launch Square payments for many, many
[5:55] years. Even though people on Twitter, or
[5:57] when I first joined Block almost 9 years
[5:59] ago, people were asking, "When are you
[6:01] guys going to do it? When are you going
[6:02] to do it?" But I think we need a certain
[6:03] saturation point of enough people having
[6:06] Bitcoin wallets, of the infrastructure
[6:09] being in a strong enough place, and also
[6:13] the broader cultural and regulatory and
[6:16] the like the whole broader situation.
[6:18] It's not something that we're going to
[6:19] we can do just overnight. And so,
[6:24] I mean, I I
[6:26] Jack and I go really far back, to be
[6:29] honest. Like I There's many years where
[6:31] it was like you, me, Odell, Marty
[6:33] pretty much shouting into the void on
[6:35] Twitter alone. And um I want to bring up
[6:39] kind of like the origin story of Strike
[6:41] that we talked about at the end of the
[6:42] last year for the first time in in many
[6:44] years. But at the end of 2019, you
[6:46] reached out to me um because we were
[6:49] buddies and you were working on Zap, I
[6:52] think at the time, but we wanted to do
[6:54] this collaboration where
[6:56] we pull from the linked bank account in
[6:58] Cash App and we send a lightning
[7:01] payment. And I mean, that was a very
[7:03] ahead of its time concept, and that's
[7:06] eventually what formed the foundation of
[7:08] Strike. And congratulations on all your
[7:10] success. I'm so glad that you ran and
[7:11] did that independently. But I think
[7:16] I think payments is kind of core to your
[7:19] to your mission as well and your ethos.
[7:21] And so, I don't think there's too much
[7:23] of a debate here. I think in the current
[7:25] reality, one of the products that we're
[7:27] seeing really take off right now is
[7:30] using that kind of original Strike
[7:32] uh
[7:33] vision of spending your dollars over the
[7:36] lightning network. And of what that
[7:38] means on Cash App right now, when you
[7:39] walk up to a Square merchant and you
[7:42] scan the Bitcoin QR code or we just
[7:45] launched tap-to-pay which everybody
[7:46] should go try out today or tomorrow
[7:49] because we're really trying to make the
[7:51] payment experience as seamless as
[7:52] possible as good as Apple Pay. But when
[7:54] you do that from Cash App you'll get the
[7:56] option of paying with your Bitcoin
[7:59] balance or paying with your dollar
[8:00] balance and we've seen an explosion of
[8:02] adoption of using that dollar balance
[8:04] because there's no taxable event. You
[8:07] you don't burn down your your stack at
[8:09] all. And for the merchant it's the same
[8:11] thing. They receive Bitcoin. There's 0%
[8:13] processing fees and for me it's a really
[8:17] interesting
[8:18] primitive for the future because
[8:21] currently within Cash App you need to be
[8:23] a Bitcoin user to have that optionality.
[8:25] But you can imagine a world in the
[8:27] future where
[8:29] whatever every every single month
[8:30] there's like 55 million people using
[8:32] Cash App that aren't using Bitcoin.
[8:35] But you can imagine a world where those
[8:37] customers can scan that QR code.
[8:39] They can pay with their dollars without
[8:41] even having to think about it. The
[8:43] merchant receives the Bitcoin that they
[8:44] want. There's no Visa in the middle and
[8:47] there's no transaction fee for the for
[8:49] the merchant. And so
[8:50] all parties kind of win there and it's
[8:53] it's something we're thinking about. It
[8:54] feels like a really strong rail for the
[8:56] future and what I love is that it keeps
[8:59] Bitcoin in the mix. It keeps Bitcoin
[9:01] moving and giving it that velocity which
[9:03] I think I truly believe I think Jack
[9:05] truly believes that we need to keep it
[9:07] moving. We need it we need it acting
[9:09] like peer-to-peer electronic cash in
[9:11] order for it to stay relevant and for us
[9:13] to win in the long term.
[9:15] Let's go. Um
[9:18] I think one of the the really
[9:19] interesting things that I've seen and
[9:21] only quite recently really like Strike
[9:23] Strike and Zap before that have been
[9:25] pushing this Bitcoin as payments thing
[9:27] and obviously Block have as well. Um but
[9:29] it feels like a lot of things have come
[9:30] together over the last few weeks. I saw
[9:32] David Marcus' announcement today with
[9:34] Lightspark which is awesome.
[9:36] Are we moving from a world where like to
[9:38] pay in Bitcoin was always kind of a
[9:39] hack? Like you could do it, but it
[9:41] required there was a big barrier to
[9:42] entry. It was a little bit hard to
[9:44] everything kind of falling into place
[9:45] and the world being ready for this now?
[9:49] Uh I think so, but
[9:52] I I I I don't know if I'm repeating
[9:53] myself, but I think it's it's the
[9:55] challenge is not technology.
[9:58] I really don't think now famous last
[10:01] words, right? So there's some developer
[10:02] out there like you but
[10:04] Um I don't think uh the the story of
[10:08] humanity is engineering a better world.
[10:10] Uh we're good at making the world a
[10:12] better place and we find our way. I'm
[10:14] not worried about that part. The
[10:16] difficult thing in getting payments
[10:18] adoption for Bitcoin is actually
[10:21] consumer behavior.
[10:23] You know, these card networks have all
[10:26] of us
[10:27] uh
[10:29] right where they want us. People use
[10:31] their their Amex card, their Chase
[10:34] Sapphire card because they get free
[10:36] flights, airport lounges, Napa Valley
[10:38] wine, cash back. And the way that works
[10:41] is they charge the merchant 3 4 5% and
[10:45] then they share that with the consumer,
[10:47] so they're effectively holding merchants
[10:49] hostage and bribing the person at
[10:51] checkout to use their option instead of
[10:54] Bitcoin.
[10:55] And then you also have a currency that's
[10:57] being actively debased and actively
[10:59] abused to bail out awful government
[11:03] decisions. Uh and so of course people
[11:05] are going to elect to get rid of the
[11:07] worst money as opposed to the better
[11:08] money, which is Gresham's law. So I
[11:10] actually think it has more to do with
[11:11] human behavior than it does. And so the
[11:15] idea that Miles and I are working on,
[11:16] the the 2019 idea that I had, it came
[11:20] from uh me trying to understand why
[11:23] Bitcoin was better than gold, believe it
[11:24] or not.
[11:26] And the reason Bitcoin is better than
[11:27] gold is because Bitcoin is uniquely both
[11:30] a monetary asset, lowercase B, it's a
[11:34] bearer instrument. It's a commodity,
[11:36] right? But it's also a monetary network.
[11:39] Uppercase B, what's the gold monetary
[11:41] network? There's no It's us. Our My
[11:44] human legs are the gold monetary
[11:46] network. The gold monetary network is if
[11:47] I need to get gold to Nigeria, I better
[11:50] take my ass to the airport. That's what
[11:52] the gold monetary network is. And And
[11:54] Bitcoin was both. It was able to achieve
[11:56] transaction finality without me having
[11:58] to deposit it to the government, which
[12:00] gives me an IOU, and in 1971, they said
[12:03] what's yours is no longer. And it was
[12:05] the This monetary network idea. And I
[12:07] was like, "Holy crap." And this was
[12:09] 2019. I was however many years old, and
[12:11] I said, "Wait a second. So, I can the
[12:13] equivalent of throwing a gold bar from
[12:15] here to Nigeria in less than a second
[12:17] and at no cost? Well, that's kind of
[12:19] cool." And if the person wanted to send
[12:23] naira or dollars or euros or pounds,
[12:26] well, they can give it to me. I'll turn
[12:27] it into the faster gold. I'll throw it
[12:29] to Nigeria in less than a second and for
[12:31] free, and I'll convert it back into the
[12:33] currency, no problem. Bitcoin's a
[12:35] global, liquid, sellable asset. It's
[12:38] easy to get in and out. And so, it's
[12:40] this idea of my passion for using
[12:43] Bitcoin as payments
[12:45] is actually to dematerialize the
[12:48] chokehold that card networks and
[12:51] centralized entities have on our ability
[12:54] to facilitate settlement. That's what I
[12:56] want to be free and open so that a David
[12:59] Marcus can launch what he wants. So that
[13:01] Miles can launch what he wants. And
[13:02] ultimately, as an American, what do I
[13:04] want when I go check out? I want all the
[13:07] greatest entrepreneurs in this country
[13:09] to compete to give me the best wallet to
[13:11] check out. And right now, I don't have
[13:13] access to the Visa rails. I don't have
[13:15] access to the MasterCard rails. They're
[13:17] abusing these merchants and treating
[13:19] them unfairly. And so, if we can use
[13:21] Bitcoin, this network, as an open,
[13:24] interoperable, it does the job that Visa
[13:26] does. It does the job that Swift does
[13:29] and we let everyone compete at the
[13:30] edges, drive costs down, be innovative.
[13:33] There'll be millions of wallets. If your
[13:35] favorite color is pink, if you like this
[13:36] one, of course, why not? But right now
[13:39] there's not a lot of options. You either
[13:40] get a Visa or a MasterCard. That's it.
[13:43] So anyway, I think it's a consumer
[13:45] problem. So now if we have this network
[13:46] implemented, it works. How do we change
[13:49] consumer behavior? Do we need to give
[13:50] them more Napa Valley wine? If so, who's
[13:52] going to pay for that? Is Dorsey paying
[13:54] for that? I assume not. And so I think
[13:56] it's a good consumer behavioral thing,
[13:57] but the long arching vision is using the
[14:00] network to free ourselves of an abusive
[14:03] relationship with corporations that I
[14:05] think have created duopoly
[14:07] and open up competition and innovation
[14:09] to what is core to money, which is value
[14:12] exchange. So I could be being naive here
[14:14] and cuz airline miles are cool, but
[14:17] money that goes up forever is cooler.
[14:19] And is is one of the consumer habits
[14:21] that needs to change like this idea of
[14:23] opportunity cost with Bitcoin. Like I
[14:24] mean I can go to the shop and I can
[14:26] spend dollars or pounds or euros or
[14:27] whatever and all of that money could
[14:29] also be Bitcoin.
[14:31] Yes, so so I actually think it's it's a
[14:33] dangerous game to try and interpret, in
[14:36] my opinion, and this is where Miles and
[14:38] I I'm happy to debate you. I love I love
[14:40] Miles like a brother. So debate or no
[14:42] debate, I'm I'm down for whatever. I I
[14:44] personally find it to be a dangerous
[14:46] game to try and interpret Satoshi's
[14:48] white paper as a particular intent or
[14:50] fact and I find Bitcoiners sometimes
[14:54] contradict each other.
[14:55] They say, "Hey,
[14:57] uh
[14:58] why aren't you using Bitcoin the way I
[14:59] think you should?" And I was like,
[15:00] "Whoa, I thought this was about property
[15:02] rights. Are you telling me how to use my
[15:05] property?" And so I think as a form of
[15:07] property rights and and the other
[15:09] contradiction is I love when Michael
[15:11] Saylor borrows fiat to stack more
[15:14] Bitcoin, but you don't like when I
[15:16] borrow fiat to go to Whole Foods?
[15:18] WHAT THE FUCK? So I think that there's a
[15:20] slight contradiction there. You know, if
[15:23] you have access to cheap depreciating
[15:26] shitcoin dollars and someone's willing
[15:28] to lend it to you, which is a luxury
[15:30] service. 100 years from now, no one's
[15:31] going to be willing to lend you pieces
[15:33] of crap paper. Um, then I I think that
[15:35] that's a fine use case. Um,
[15:38] and and it solves for a lot of the it
[15:40] keeps Bitcoin off the market of being
[15:42] sold. Um, it allows people to grow
[15:45] wealth. I mean, it changes lives. If you
[15:46] can find a way to hold an asset that's
[15:49] averaging 30% year over year,
[15:51] you can change you and your family's
[15:53] life if you could do find a way to do
[15:55] that for 3, 4, 5 years.
[15:57] And so, I don't necessarily have a
[15:59] problem with that. I think if Bitcoin is
[16:00] property rights, you know, you'll find
[16:03] different pockets of the world finding
[16:05] value for different reasons. No one's
[16:06] wrong. It's no one's job or role to
[16:09] determine what Bitcoin is and why it's
[16:10] valuable for them. Um, so that's my
[16:14] broad strokes opinion. Serving a global
[16:16] user base,
[16:18] we see different behaviors everywhere
[16:19] and they're all right. No one's wrong, I
[16:21] guess. Uh, and I I actually don't
[16:24] disagree with that at all. I feel like
[16:27] from the Block perspective, we have a
[16:31] bit of an obligation because we have
[16:33] both sides of the counter to and we have
[16:36] the luxury of being a diversified
[16:38] company where we can play the long game
[16:40] on Bitcoin and we don't have to optimize
[16:43] for short-term profits immediately
[16:45] because we think in the long run this is
[16:47] going to be the biggest opportunity to
[16:50] have a global payments network.
[16:52] Most There's not a lot of companies that
[16:55] have that luxury. And frankly, I think
[16:57] if we weren't doing that, I think it'd
[17:00] be it would be a real threat to Bitcoin.
[17:02] And so, I think we take a lot of pride
[17:05] in that. But,
[17:07] I have no problem with lending at all.
[17:09] On the Cash App side of the house,
[17:11] uh, actually across Block, we've
[17:14] originated over 220 billion dollars
[17:17] in like helping out consumers and
[17:19] helping out small businesses and across
[17:21] Afterpay as well. And so there's real
[17:23] economic value that can come from that.
[17:26] And I think
[17:28] as we like it I look at your guys
[17:30] lending business and I'm I'm jealous,
[17:32] you know, and like we'll probably do
[17:34] that shortly. And we think that's really
[17:35] important, but I think given where we
[17:38] are in the market over the last few
[17:40] years and feeling
[17:42] it feels to me like we're in the midst
[17:44] of this big paradigm change. And if and
[17:47] if Block is not doing this, I think
[17:49] there's real danger for the world.
[17:52] Bitcoin is the only truly
[17:54] censorship resistance money that there
[17:56] is right now. And as we're moving into
[17:58] this AI world and as we're moving into
[18:01] every single thing being recorded and
[18:03] watched and permissioned, I truly think
[18:06] that
[18:07] if we don't preserve peer-to-peer
[18:09] digital cash right now, it's a right
[18:11] that we're going to lose and we're going
[18:12] to lose forever. And so I take that as a
[18:16] responsibility to lead the charge. And
[18:17] the the beautiful thing about Bitcoin is
[18:20] it's not just us benefiting, it's the
[18:21] whole community. And so Strike is
[18:23] interoperable, Phoenix is interoperable,
[18:26] and we're laying the groundwork. We're
[18:28] thinking on a really long timeline. And
[18:32] we have the luxury of of of being able
[18:34] to do that because we think it's the
[18:35] best long-term decision in the long run.
[18:38] But
[18:39] if you look
[18:40] if you look towards the future, if you
[18:42] ask any government right now like
[18:45] would you if if something new came out
[18:47] of nowhere and they're laying down the
[18:48] laws and the financial laws,
[18:50] does anybody here think that they would
[18:51] like institute this concept of cash? To
[18:54] me it's a relic from an earlier time and
[18:57] one that we need to cherish because
[19:00] from my view it looks like around the
[19:02] world every government wants to get rid
[19:03] of this. They want they want to see
[19:05] every payment, they want to control
[19:07] every payment, and I think that's a
[19:09] really scary thing in the AI world. And
[19:11] so that's that's my personal opinion on
[19:14] why I think it's so important. I think
[19:16] on a long enough time frame, it's going
[19:17] to pay out and it's a really important
[19:19] thing for human freedom in the long run.
[19:22] 100%.
[19:23] Um
[19:25] just to quickly switch this over to the
[19:27] borrowing against your Bitcoin
[19:28] conversation. Strike, you've done an
[19:31] amazing job there
[19:32] at trying to get those rates as low as
[19:34] possible, but they're they're still
[19:35] relatively high. And I understand that
[19:36] there's a cost of capital for the people
[19:38] that are actually lending the dollars.
[19:39] Um but as we often talk about it as
[19:42] being the best form of collateral ever.
[19:44] Like on the lender side, there's never
[19:46] zero risk, but risk is pretty low. Like
[19:47] it's 24/7 markets, you can liquidate
[19:49] things. Um
[19:51] when do you think the broader market
[19:53] will wake up for that and the the rates
[19:54] will go significantly lower?
[19:56] Well, I don't think people understand
[20:00] what
[20:01] how the market works. Um it doesn't
[20:03] matter how risk-free the return is. Um
[20:07] what matters is if I have a billion
[20:09] dollars,
[20:11] you're asking me to lend it out to get
[20:14] 1% return? Well, I'm better off buying a
[20:17] US bond. That's risk-free cuz those guys
[20:20] can print it out of thin air, and
[20:21] they're willing to give me 3 and 1/2, 4,
[20:23] 4 and 1/2%. And so, it doesn't matter
[20:26] that Bitcoin is as pristine as it is.
[20:28] That's never going to be a disagreement
[20:30] for me. What matters is
[20:33] the market of people that for whatever
[20:35] reason have fiat in the first place. If
[20:37] you've got billions of dollars of fiat,
[20:39] the fuck are you doing? So, you have
[20:42] this weird market of call it fixed
[20:44] income investors or institutional
[20:45] investors cuz by the way, you know,
[20:48] Bitcoin is so niche, right? Um you you
[20:51] think you're doing well, and then you
[20:52] hear that Miles has lent out a quarter
[20:54] trillion dollars. So, if you want to
[20:56] scale these markets and you want to lend
[20:58] out a lot of money, um finding capital
[21:01] that's saying I I could be getting 30%
[21:04] year-over-year on average by owning
[21:06] Bitcoin, but I'll forego that
[21:08] opportunity so that you can borrow
[21:10] against it. How much do I need
[21:14] in return for that relationship? I mean,
[21:16] let's use Michael Saylor and strategy
[21:18] for example. Michael Saylor used to be
[21:20] borrowing money at 0%.
[21:23] Do you think that he got sick of that
[21:24] and preferred 11, 12, 13%? Danny, do you
[21:27] think that he just prefers a higher
[21:29] number?
[21:30] >> Absolutely not. Probably not, right?
[21:31] He's doing it because there he ran out
[21:33] of people willing to give money at 0%.
[21:36] And so if you're going to ask someone in
[21:38] the crowd, "Hey, don't buy Bitcoin. Buy
[21:41] stretch." Well, how much are they going
[21:43] to demand from you to take that deal?
[21:46] Turns out what Michael Saylor's paying
[21:48] is kind of what the Bitcoin lending rate
[21:50] is. So it's what How much do you have to
[21:52] pay someone to say, "I'm not going to
[21:54] buy Nvidia. I'm not going to buy
[21:56] Anthropic. I'm not going to buy Bitcoin.
[21:58] I'm not going to buy really nice real
[21:59] estate. I'm going to lend it to you. I
[22:02] know it's pristine collateral, but
[22:04] people need to appreciate that's what
[22:06] the market is made up of." Ultimately,
[22:08] once we get into implicit government
[22:12] guarantees and Bitcoin finds its way
[22:14] seeps through the cracks like universal
[22:17] asset as it always does and ends up
[22:19] conquering the inner walls of all these
[22:21] institutions, we'll start getting really
[22:23] cheap dollars from the Jamie Diamonds of
[22:24] the world, but we're just not there yet.
[22:26] And so that's why.
[22:29] There is so much more that I want to
[22:30] talk to you to about, but we're running
[22:32] very low on time. Um one of the things
[22:34] just like from my perspective that I've
[22:35] seen like Bitcoin is in a bear market,
[22:38] price is quite low, but I've never been
[22:40] more bullish on the stuff that people
[22:42] are building. Like I think it's
[22:43] absolutely awesome the developments
[22:44] we've had over the last 6 months. Um
[22:47] what a time to be in Bitcoin, guys.
[22:48] Maybe we'll have to do a podcast and get
[22:49] into this more deeply. Deal. Let's do
[22:51] it, Danny. I'm down. All right. Thank
[22:53] you, guys.
[22:53] >> Thanks, guys. Give it up for these two.
[23:02] Every year
[23:04] this community comes together
[23:06] to celebrate,
[23:08] to debate,
[23:10] to build what comes next.
[23:14] And every year
[23:17] the stage gets bigger.
[23:21] Sound money
[23:23] center stage.
[23:24] So, where do you go to celebrate the
[23:26] next chapter in Bitcoin history?
[23:31] You come home.
[23:34] Nashville, July 2027.