Ari Emanuel’s «Anti-AI» Bet on Live Entertainment

[00:00] Ari Emanuel is a true business and entertainment Renaissance [music] man. I just don't think there's anyone else like him in the world. He was able to transition from having a really hard time as a kid growing up dyslexic. [music] >> I was in special ed. There can't be more embarrassing than that. Like so anything now, I'm not I'm not going to [ __ ] Like you can't embarrass me. To [music] getting activated in the mailroom at CAA all the way to being one of the greatest agents, the inspiration for Ari Gold on Entourage to becoming a successful entrepreneur owning and running sports
[00:30] leagues like the UFC and the WWE, many many more that we get into in this conversation. You got to over-communicate. If they're not getting back to you, you got to keep on calling them. Like, "What are you doing?" Like that's the job. His simple thesis that live [music] is the antidote to AI risk, that AI and technology can never disrupt live and actually makes it way more valuable. >> I'm having my dinner with Elon [music] and we're talking about AI. He said this to me. He goes, "Live cannot be disrupted." I said, "Okay." >> [laughter] >> I I have 2 years. >> This is one. If you're listening right
[01:00] now, I would encourage you to stop and watch. This is someone that you can feel their physical presence in a distinctive way. And who the [ __ ] wants to be normal? Like normal sucks, right? >> Both he directly and everyone that works with him all day long is just moving through stuff with a velocity and a pace and an urgency [music] that is rare or singular. So I hope you enjoyed this awesome conversation with Ari Emanuel. We're going to UFC tomorrow night? Yes. I've never seen it and I've never been
[01:31] to an event, but it has captured everyone's imagination. It's this amazing business. I think you bought it in 2016. Can you just explain the magic of this business? When I started, I represented the WWE. Yeah. And I represented the UFC and I when I signed the UFC, it was on Spike. You know, we had a whole division inside the company looking at ratings. And all of a sudden they came in and they showed me, "Here's this thing on Spike and here's the numbers." And then I realized like, "Wow, this thing's ratings are starting
[02:01] to move." So I figured out, "Oh, it's Dana White and the Fertittas." And I represented the WWE and they're close enough and you know, so I called them. Called Dana. Yeah. Yeah. And eventually I got a meeting. And I completely screwed up the meeting. Yeah, I was talking about the WWE, they you know, it was just bad. It was one of my worst signing meetings. And um I just kept at it cuz I knew based on their ratings and what they were getting as the license fee, the domestic license fee,
[02:32] it wasn't enough money. And I knew if I got my hands on it, I could do some stuff with it. It just as a representative. And so eventually after doing a couple things, he signed with me. The the organization signed with me. And we took they were making $15 million a year from Spike. And I think the first deal I made at Spike was um I increased it to 75, something like that. And we made a video game deal, which they had never had. You know, after 20 years
[03:03] it you know, it was we moved it to Fox for $150 million. Good growth rate so far. Yeah, >> [laughter] >> we've we've done well. And then my life changed cuz Silver Lake came into my life. We started buying companies. We bought IMG. And we had started building an infrastructure because of IMG, they had sports and events, an infrastructure to whether it be licensing, distribution, production,
[03:33] a lot of things that companies needed on a global basis, not just a domestic basis. And then the Fertittas decided they wanted to sell. And a little bit before that we had bought PBR, the Professional Bull Riding, had started turning that thing around. Silver Lake, Egon, my partner Egon Durban, realized, you know, we had we do more negotiations at on the domestic side broadcasting for TV shows and movies than kind of almost anybody else like we you could handle and we'd already done it for other people. We you could handle a sports if
[04:04] you owned it. And I concluded where the world was going. I was kind of talking about it's going to go to streaming. Sports going to be important. It was on cable. It's going to move there because they're going to for AVOD and everything. So we buy it. Now at the time when we bought IMG, the closest bidder we think was churning at 1.9 billion. We we paid 2.4. Everybody thought it was the highest price ever paid. When we bought UFC on the current trajectory, it was 20
[04:35] times. If I made the proper domestic deal, I could take take the leverage down. And I thought I just did the math. You know, here's how much they needed because of here's how much programming and then here's how cuz five remember at the time Fox owned these RSNs, the regional players. And they had just the spokes off the library. And I said they have to pay here's a normal increase. Not like the rest of your people that sit in this chair when you ask them how they >> [laughter] >> do their analysis. Cut to, we buy it.
[05:07] People think we're crazy. And then the world blows up. Rupert decides to sell to Disney. Those two people are not bidding. Comcast didn't want it. Warners didn't want it. And Paramount had not decided what they were going to be. >> Right. So now I'm looking at myself. Can we swear on this? >> Of course. >> Yeah. We're [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> Right? I mean I got no bidders. Yeah. And my contract's coming up in a year. So we go back to Fox sans
[05:38] what they were going to have remaining and say, "You should buy this." Lachlan didn't want to do it for his point of view. I think it was like three or four months into close into our deal coming off Fox. ESPN fires John Skipper who was always shining me on that he wanted it. He never wanted it. Bob Iger and Kevin Mayer say, "We want it cuz we're going to go direct on ESPN."
[06:08] >> [snorts] >> And we make a deal. You're you're coming on Saturday to the pay-per-views, which we have stopped now since we're going to Paramount. And and we have these kind of just normal fights every weekend. Um our fight nights. So I I did my job. It was emotionally trying, but we got it done. And what then happened, which was incredible, was um and horrible all at once. COVID happens. >> Right. World shuts down. You went to the Middle East, right? >> Dana goes,
[06:38] "We're putting the fights on." I said, "I'm I got your back." He goes, "Get me an island." I call my partners in the Middle East in Abu Dhabi. And um Kaldoun who owns um Man City. >> [snorts] >> And I said, "We need an island. And we need planes and we need testing everything." Everything. And cuz there's not going to be no honest, we need this and he says, "Yes." And so we bring fighters in from Europe. We bring fighters in from the United States. We test. Everybody's isolated
[07:09] for 2 weeks. And we we spent like 2 months, I think, maybe 3 months there. And no one else is doing anything. >> No no sports on. >> Yeah. And it blows up. Mhm. How much of an inflection was that in audience size? Like >> Oh, it mean our pay-per-views were getting like a million views. I mean it was it was insane. Yeah. Cuz there was no sports on. Zero. I don't know if you remember that period. It was like nothing. >> Yeah, there was literally nothing. >> And the two sports that we that we were the first two up, the UFC and PBR.
[07:39] And we had a whole document on our testing. We did a whole It was crazy. If I boil down your whole life, is it is it make [ __ ] happen over and over and over and over relentlessly? >> of relentlessly not saying not taking no. Yeah. But I think that's most successful people. >> How are you so good at that? You have you have you have a very distinctive style of being extremely good at that. How did that develop? Well, when you have two older brothers that are really good at their job and a mother that and a father that um you know, just push you. Yeah.
[08:09] And there's many good things to dyslexia. And any parent that has a dyslexic child, I will tell you it does get better if you hang in there. I don't get embarrassed easily. I'm not somebody saying no, who cares. I just keep on Keep going. >> Try try to open more doors. And so [snorts] those elements in my life, my mom, my brothers, competition, I'm competitive with myself. Yeah. Very. What's that feel like? Horrible.
[08:39] >> [laughter] >> You know, it's exhausting. Um but it's gotten better over you know, But but what is it like internally? Are you literally waking up like beating yourself? >> yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Every day? Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean there's you know, there's that clock there's that voice Mhm. kind of ticking off all the things you got to do and playing the chess match. And one of the things that Jeff Bezos said to me it was so good. It really did help me. He said, "You have to at your age, Ari, now know when you're on the field and know
[09:10] when you're off the field." The problem in the past it was helpful to a point, but you can't get really successful. I was always on the field. Always. Defined as what? Meaning I was always playing chess in any conversation. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thinking of the angle, working the situation. And sometimes you know, it should just be Just chill out. Chill the [ __ ] [laughter] out, right? And um I never realized that. You know, and he kind of many things
[09:41] helped me. What what that little conversation like was like, "You know, he's actually right." And it actually makes when you're on the field Better. Better. Mhm. And I didn't I wasn't mature enough to realize that until somebody slapped me in the face. And being off the field for you means what? Well, like in any conversation, I'm not >> You're not calculating for five >> out all the different things. I'm not It's not It can just be a good conversation. I'm curious, so I read a ton. I read a ton
[10:11] of articles. I tell my office I want to talk to that person. I want to talk to that person. You know, I'm I'm on the field a lot. But there's sometimes like Chill exactly. Chill the [ __ ] out. You know, you don't have to be on the field. >> What about wrestling? What did wrestling How good were you at wrestling? What made you good? What was your style? What did it teach you? You know what it it does do? Wrestling. And I think um like MMA and when you're in high school and you have to go from my size now to 132 lbs. Easier when you're younger.
[10:41] And you have to starve yourself plus work out and go to school and The the mental fortitude of that just keeps on going in your life. That you can handle that emotional pain. And that's also in business. You know, when we talk about like I can handle a lot of emotional pain. And I think one of the hardest things now for kids which I hope I I teach my kids is that emotional endurance that you need in life right now is even more you know, it's more challenging.
[11:12] I think business just because business is no longer binary. It's multi multi-layered. You have to realize sometimes you have to have a relationship with somebody even though there's things in that relationship you don't like to right? And I don't think that was in the past in business. You had to think through all those things. So and it's just emotionally draining right now because there's so many things going on. So What was the most extreme emotional pain you ever felt in business? This situation with the UFC. >> the contract thing. With the UFC. Yeah. Cuz
[11:42] you know, I put all the chips in the middle. Four four 4.2 billion dollars in the middle. Clients were investing. My biggest investor is investing. I had done the calculation like here's I didn't see that Ruber was going to sell and and we're coming to the end. Contract's four months away. Because of that, my thyroid went on the fritz. It was so much pressure. I'd never had that physical like physical actual. I went down to 142 lbs. >> Holy [ __ ] Yeah. Dana talks about this
[12:12] like all gray hair and emaciated sweating. I mean, it was horrible. And finally I went to the doctor and he goes, you know, your your thyroid's [ __ ] It going at a rate. And so that was hard. But once it got done everything came back and kind of >> [sighs] >> calmed down. No longer was on the field all the time. >> What does the power dynamic feel like today around content, those that own it, and the places that it could be distributed
[12:43] versus the past of that same power structure and how it's evolved? >> in the past they couldn't own the the the owners of distribution couldn't own the whole Right. thing. Now with cable gone and broadcast not gone, but in decline. We just talked about is it going to be Warner Brothers with Netflix or is it going to be Paramount? You know, there's not a lot of supply chain. These guys are doing it and they're doing it within each other's boundaries. Sony's one of the suppliers. There's some.
[13:14] Before there was a lot. You know, even before when I was in the business, you had tax incentives for production. There's a company called Witt Thomas and all these independents used to supply. They used to get tax benefits and supply great programming and it was unbelievable. Then you had syndication and that's how at the beginning of my career we made all this money. You know, television was a great business. You put a show on if you're an independent, you don't own the show. Like Carsey-Werner. Tom Werner who owns
[13:44] um the Boston Red Sox and I think he still owns Liverpool and he owns some foreign thing. You so you put the 70 show on or the Cosby show on or Roseanne or you do 150 episodes. You sell it to a station group for $5 million an episode. 150. You can do the math. >> That I can. And then you do a second window into cable and then a third window happened when Netflix came around. You'll see it. >> you do that multiple after they've run its course. You The second window is
[14:14] syndication. The third window is syndication. The fourth window. Now it's really just what we just did for The Office and you can do for The Simpsons and you can do for Family Guy and Curb and Seinfeld. You're doing not they're paying a lot of money. You're doing it at for The Office, you're doing it at Comcast for that's the window. It's $500 million for the for the new window. It's a very good deal. But then I think about four years ago
[14:44] three years ago the Writers Guild took away our packages. But it used to be you had all these independents supplying all the content. Now it's the majors supplying the majors. And so it's a lot different. And I I do think that has not been beneficial. I do think what's going to happen now though AI is definitely going to reduce costs. So I had a client who's a writer director. I'm not going to say who.
[15:14] He's got to do an outline for a project. He gave I think Grok or Perplexity or incredible prompt based on a piece of IP. The outline for the project. >> Pretty close. No, no. Now remember AI as as people say is the greatest average, which it is. >> Yeah. He said it was unbelievable. Now he's going to have to do work on it and do it. But that would have taken months. Months. >> Yeah. Is your take on AI that it
[15:44] basically supercharges the very best people disproportionately? >> Yes. Yeah. >> my house, right? Um I'm not in other businesses, but I mean my son works at Apple. I mean, I think programmers are feeling that, you know. I think they're feeling that in probably finance and When you saw Sora too, what did you think? Oh, I wanted to sue them. You know, cuz he stole a bunch of stuff. You know, he put the UFC up there. They put the WWE. They put bull riding and really bad stuff. You know, what it's going to do whether it be Sora, Grok,
[16:14] Perplexity, all the it's just going to make production costs, filming DPs costume design. I mean, it's just and then and then you're going to be able to either bring Bette Davis back Mhm. or Elizabeth Taylor. It's going to happen. Yeah. And so you're [clears throat] going to see in a good way like in the music business you can do an album in your bed. Yeah. I think the same thing's true >> movie business. >> in the movie business. I don't know where it's going. It's but it it it's it's going to be cheaper and there's
[16:45] going to be a lot of it. And I think you're going to not it's not going to be the walls around creating content for the first time because of the cost because it used to cost 100 Yeah, it's no longer going to be that. And so that's going to come down. >> In a world where the marginal cost of content creation is like getting close to zero. Where does the value occur? If we have four bit great bidders and maybe with six Wi-Fi maybe everybody with so with their social platforms is a distributor, right? Through social.
[17:15] Let's just say we're right. The marginal cost becomes zero. And you are Dwayne Johnson. And you have I don't know how many people he has on social. But it's a lot. Hundreds. Or Kim Kardashian or you name it. Mark You name the person. Are you not a distributor? A distributor. >> Yeah. You know, those are the questions that are going to arise pretty soon. I say to people in my William Morris,
[17:45] for the first time taste matters. Mhm. A lot. >> Say a little bit more about that. I don't know about you, but I get called all the time. Oh, this is a great script. Shut the [ __ ] up. Knowing what is good and what is commercial and what sells. No, I'm not always right, you know. I'm probably batting 300. I'm in the Hall of Fame, right? So 60% of the time I'm I'm screwed. But people with taste that know this business that know kind of what an audience a mass audience likes is hard. And so if you have taste and you're
[18:17] seeing a lot of programming, you can say there's talent there. That actually has value. So you put it on your Dwayne Johnson. Let's just take it out to its Let's just say my my conclusion's right. >> Yeah. And you take it out to its farthest limit where Dwayne Johnson has a development team and they're looking for stuff and they're picking it and they're putting it on their service, right? For Dwayne and Dwayne's paying that person. I don't know if they're paying them a million dollars or $10,000 cuz the thing costs nothing.
[18:49] There's a value proposition there. And you getting a sponsor? You getting a subs? I don't know. That's hap that that in some capacity that's going to happen. Brands are going to be really important. Old IP's going Um I think the value of uh sports is going to be even more valuable. What about the content side of this? What what content side? The use of >> IP by >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's going to be huge business. I I do believe it's David Ellison's bet.
[19:19] Right? That there's going to be more need for content than there's ever been. And there's going to be more consumption. I agree with that. And it's going to be cheaper. >> What about the use of content by labs where maybe they shouldn't have used it to train models for example? >> Oh, yeah, they should all [snorts] get sued. You think that'll work? How do you think that'll play out? Well, we we we sent the bad letter to Sam. Like stop using the UFC and the WWE and so they're going to have to pay. >> Yeah. I think unless the Supreme Court says something. I
[19:50] mean, I I don't know how you don't pay for when Larry David creates Curb and Seinfeld and you're taking it to train your model and you're going to make a lot of zeros. You don't think Larry David deserves to get paid? I think that's crazy. Let's talk about IRL stuff in this context. Obviously, you've created a portfolio of some of the marquee live events and I know you believe very deeply in this. Is there a way to think about this almost like the anti-AI bet or the AI-proof bet? AI is going to be big.
[20:20] >> [laughter] >> Which I think is a proper conclusion. >> Lots of R. Yeah. There's a really lot of smart people spending a lot of money at it and they're smarter than me. Okay. Netherlands just said 4-day work weeks. Drive times now are 11:00 to 4:00 across America. Hotel bookings Thursdays way up. And there's a lot of more data points to this. So, the weekend starts Thursday now. And we're, you know, 2025.
[20:50] Maybe 2027, they start Wednesday. So, we're social animals. You're coming to a UFC fight. You're a social guy. What are you going to do? You're going to watch a lot of content. David Ellison's conclusion. You're going to watch a lot of content. Right? There's going to be more content than ever cost zero. On his service, on four big services. You're going to be watching you're going to be going to concerts, going to stand up, going to live events, sports or my live events that I I've just bought.
[21:20] And so, the value of that is just cuz if there's only there's only so much. And yeah, people are creating new ones, but you know, so that's my whole bet. Simple. I don't know how to write an algorithm for AI. I don't know how to build a data center. I'm not in the chip business. I I just know how to create really great live events, monetize them, have a great user experience. And it's the opposite because data centers data centers aren't the opposite
[21:51] bet. Live is the opposite bet. >> What makes a great live event? What are the ingredients? Well, you have there has to be a specific audience. So, in art, there's a very specific audience, right? There's a there's a culture around art. It's global. There's really good conversation about it. Cars, antique cars is another one of my businesses. Very specific. >> Very specific. Sports, UFC, bull riding, WWE. Very specific, right? Taste, food festivals.
[22:21] So, I'm in the areas that I know there's great cultural stickiness. Affinity. It's global. So, one of the things that we know, why did we do Freeze? It was only in two places. It was in UK and New York. We knew there were art festivals all the place run poorly. We knew we could take it globally. We could spread the the sponsorship. We could determine that city needs them and they would pay us for to bring events. So, we get site fees. Right? So, hey, bring Freeze,
[22:52] great brand, knows how to do this properly. Well, you know, the food around it, all the thing, you know, lectures, etc. We're going to pay you to be come here for 10 years to put on the event. We we just closed that deal in Abu Dhabi. And so, when you start doing those things properly, in our Madrid Open, which is our tennis tournament. It's one of the nine major nine 1000s. We're going to build another stadium to build another food festival. We're going to do concerts after the tennis tournament. We just know how to
[23:23] How to do it. How to do it. And so, when we look at these things, we look at them in a way that what are they missing? Because we're we're one of the only companies on a global basis that do live events. Sometimes you have companies that do great live events, but they're they're local. They're they're guys that are in Arizona. They're guys that are in just the UK. When they come into our organization, we're in 32 company. We know, oh, you know something, there's an affinity here. >> You said two other things, monetization and user experience. I'm going to save monetization cuz I have a specific question about it. Um what what is great
[23:54] user experience? >> So, when they go around, there's food, there's lectures, there's surrounding events that make the event itself and inside the event really special. Um and it's a great way I can't express enough the need for people to get community. Cuz we're all sitting Yeah, staring. >> staring, you know. I remember one of the things that made me think about this also about why live events are so important in sports were so important.
[24:25] Tiger talked about it at one point. I saw a documentary, I think it was on like when he first won, people were clapping. Second time, uh-uh. Phones were up and people were screaming. Right? And that's because that thing you want to show how great your life is, right? And that all same things like detaches you and you want a place where you can have with other people a great experience. >> Yeah. And that just goes well for music, live sports, live events. >> Yeah, and you're selling status to some degree. Like you're selling the video
[24:56] they're taking. This is status. Yeah. Um monetization is the one that intrigues me the most based on a conversation you and I have had before, which is we're still figuring out the demand curve inside of one of these events. >> You know, we bought this company On Location. You know about that? >> A little bit, but remind me. >> So, On Location, Gerry Cardinale first owned it with the NFL and they were doing the premium hospitality for the Super Bowl. And [clears throat] we thought, well, that's incredible cuz people are asking for premiums now and
[25:27] rich people are asking for more and more cuz they can get everything, so they want even specialer. And that [snorts] there was tiered market. Not in a bad way, you know, some people I'm I'm going to pay $100 and some people are going to pay $300. And then some people are going to pay crazy. So, in the Super Bowl, go to Tiffany's and get a blue football and have 10 people with you and get a lecture from Peyton Manning and walk on the field pregame and come out with the team and be on the stage for
[25:59] weigh-ins at the UFC and sit at the table with Dana White and for that I'm going to pay $50,000 a ticket or I'm going to pay $300,000 for the Super Bowl or XYZ for the Olympics. It's crazy. >> And you still haven't found the >> Oh, no, no, we're just and we're adding. So, the Olympics, FIFA, UFC, um WWE. In every category, there's there's premiums. And people pay crazy. >> Crazy. How much of it do you think is them paying for the video that they get
[26:29] on that versus the actual experience? >> think I think it has to be Yeah, pretty high. But I but I think that's fantastic. Yeah. Like [snorts] you worked your ass off. Yeah. You love this thing. >> Yeah. Whatever be music, events, sports. I want a different experience in my life. Yes, for that, but just life. >> Yeah. And I think COVID made that happen, too. Yeah. And people are doing it. I Where it ends, I don't know, but it is a huge premium business. How
[27:01] far can you push this? Like it feels like you've you've collected lots of the marquee assets and things that you love. Like what's the runway feel like to you for this >> one thing that we're doing in the live events business that I started. >> This is Freeze and this is Yeah, this is it's called IMG. This is Freeze, Barrett-Jackson, our tennis tournaments, our participatory sports like Escape from Alcatraz and Melbourne Marathon and our Taste Festivals, uh Winter Wonderland, that business. So, we bought a ticketing business inside that.
[27:31] This thing called um TodayTix. The ticketing business mainly that they do mainly almost all they do is um theater business. And they've when COVID happened, they unlike other ticketing business which had to keep on operating, they shut the whole thing down and rewrote the operating system and it's incredible. We'll create a destination with an incredible ticketing asset. Where Where I think it's going is hopefully, we create a
[28:01] a a platform that is has events because we operate events pretty well. Plus a destination, you white label ticketing, then we can create a sponsorship layer, site fee layer and maybe white label some stuff and go from there. So, that's the that's the dream. That's the way What is the most surprising thing about the landscape of sports and live event live events to you today? >> you think about sports, so you have the beast of all beasts, NFL.
[28:31] NBA, global. Baseball, hockey, English Premier League, Spanish League, French. You know, you just go. They're all owned by federations and there's very few independent. Yeah. And very few people that know how to run them. When we were buying the UFC, he was like and we were having this argument internally. Egon would say, well, the best people that can pay the most are the broadcast Well, they would ruin the sport. I mean, there's so many things that happen to run one of these things. You have to make really hard decisions
[29:01] and right? So, there's first of all, so there's a limited amount that is available to buy. In the wrong hands, the ones that are independent, I mean, unless Adam Silver's there, unless Roger Goodell's there, those things don't run the way they're supposed to. I mean, those things are hard. And the same [clears throat] thing with our sport. We're about to start our boxing business. So, if you approach boxing, Well, we we're we're we've start we've announced the boxing league with Paramount and we do the big kind of like huge super events. As you approach that
[29:31] opportunity, talking like tell me the story of how you built this. Like you're I know you're really excited about the boxing stuff. >> so Don King screws over Ali. The Ali gets Act gets passed. It um changes the sport. Now, first of all, to create a league in a combat sport, the only person that could have ever done it is Dana White. Ever. He did it to the UFC. And the other person that the only person that could have done it, and it's it's a
[30:02] it's sports entertainment, is Vince McMahon. Right? It's incredible. Yeah, those two guys. So, we now look at that, the Ali Act's going to exist. We're going to put it in Hopefully, we can get this past and add an element to it that we could create an another opportunity for fighters. We're going to have, like we have in the UFC, the best fighters fight the best fighters. >> Mhm. And we think we can create like a UFC, but with boxing, and Zuffa boxing.
[30:32] And if we do that, I think fighters are going to make more money. Cuz right now, you don't know any great fighters. It's not like I can literally name one. >> name one. We think we can do that, and then boxers will make more money. It will be a business for them. And it's a great sport. The one I I was more jazzed than ever about that. We put a great fight on at Allegiant Stadium, where the Raiders play. Um and Mark Davis was unbelievable, my partner, you got to know who he is, who
[31:03] is part of that, was unbelievable helping us with that. And when you put a great fight and a great card on, how many people showed up? And because it's so ingrained boxing into our world, 70,000 people. And they did not leave. It was spectacular. And so, if we do that now, I think it can be as big or bigger than the UFC and and the WWE, and they're big. And we're going to do our best to do it, because I think the audience wants it, and I think it'd be great for for fighters. What makes Dana so incredible as an entrepreneur?
[31:33] What is his superpower? One, he loves it. He he loves it. >> good place to start. >> he really does love combat sports. Two is he's not scared. When you look at him, his his his poker play his poker play I don't know how he does it, cuz if I'm betting $5, I'm I I can't play poker. But, you know, he he he makes fun of me when we do this, right? >> [laughter] >> We're celebrating the deal at Endeavor. He goes, "Fight. Come to Come to Vegas. We're going out for dinner. We're celebrating." I'm
[32:04] like, "Okay. What does that mean?" "Well, we're going to go gamble." What? What? I don't gamble. >> Yeah. I said, "Okay." He goes, "What How much do you want on your line?" I go, "Two grand." I said, yeah, I I think I said I think I said 25,000. >> [laughter] >> And we're in the car, and we're driving. He goes, "You're the biggest gambler I know." To me. I'm like, "No, I'm not." He goes, "You just bet on me $4.2 billion,
[32:34] right?" You know, [laughter] he took a million dollars. I I think I think he got me up to like $50,000 on the line. And I said, "Well, that's not a gamble, cuz I, you know, I did my version in my head, my calculation." So, he is just like a unique individual that, you know, he's not partisan. He's loyal. He has a vision. He he backs your play. If you back, you know, he's just that guy, and he's not afraid to take take on a challenge, and
[33:05] do the work. I mean, he works constantly. And so, in this space, he just knows the space so well. And he's relentless. How did you learn to become not afraid? Well, I mean, when you're dyslexic, and people are making fun of you, and Just power through. Yeah, you know, you can't be embarrassed. Like there's nothing more embarrassing when you're >> [snorts] >> 13 years old, and you're in Like a remedial class or something. >> Well, it wasn't remedial. It was I I It doesn't matter. You can't Yeah. And
[33:36] you're in school, and you know you're not stupid, and you know, I was in special ed. Well, there can't be more embarrassing than that. Like, so anything now, I'm not I don't give a [ __ ] Like, you can't embarrass me. So, and it was actually that simple. When you're in special ed, and you're 15 years old, and you're in high school, and your two brothers are some of the smartest kids from that high school, and you have to walk home,
[34:06] you're really good at math, you just can't read just because of how your brain's wired, and and they put you in special ed, you're like, "What the fuck?" So, what was the first experience though of like clicking out of that to the opposite of like, "Oh, [ __ ] I'm actually really I could be really good at something." >> Well, you know, yeah, I I I don't know what it was. I was like, my my three boys were dyslexic, cuz it does get passed on. My father was dyslexic. And when my boys were dyslexic, I I put them into this class, this this school
[34:37] in the summer called Lindamood-Bell. Kind of like a They run a marathon on their brains to to teach their their left back lobe how to read. It's 4 hours a day, relentless. >> [clears throat] >> My mom did that to me. She There was no Lindamood-Bell back then, you know. >> [laughter] >> People call, you know, tiger moms. I don't know what you call a Jewish tiger mom, but it's it's brutal, all right? I don't care what anybody else is saying. You're going to college, cuz I wasn't
[35:07] going to go to college. You're reading. You're getting good grades. Tiger mom at a degree of 10. And then, what was the first like early 20s, like post-college like big hit of success? >> I knew Here's what I knew. I I can't I screwed around in Europe for a year. I came back to New York. And a friend of mine at the time was this guy by the name of um Michael Mendelson. And he was working for this company. And now, I used to when I was, cuz I was hyperactive, too. I used to wake up at
[35:38] 5:00 in the morning, just watch TV, and I watch I used to watch the Crusher and the Bruiser and and the regional wrestling, and TV shows, and ne- never knew how it was made, but watched everything. I said, "What are you doing?" And he said to me, "Oh, I'm working at William Morris." Now, how the [ __ ] am I supposed to know what William Morris is? I'm from Chicago. My father's a doctor. He's an immigrant. Like, William Morris, what what the [ __ ] is William Morris? So, he tells me. And for whatever reason, bang, the light went on. And I didn't have a job. I didn't know what I was
[36:08] going to go to business school, back to Northwestern, and go to some on night school business school, or and I was going to work at the Merc, cuz I used to do summer jobs at the Merc in the pits, you know, 220, 220. I used to do all that, right? I thought [clears throat] I was going to do that. I was good at math, and and for whatever reason, the minute he told me that, I said, "That's it. That's a gig for me." Got it Got a job working for this guy by the name of Robbie Lance. I was working for Bob Duva, who who um who went to work for Robbie Lance.
[36:41] And it just started. I I helped with the Tennessee Williams Lillian Hellman um and Dashiell Hammett estates, kind of making rights deals for them, and organizing them properly. He was, I think at the time, 86. And he turns to me, and I was doing a really good job. And he says, "I'm not promoting anybody. You should You can make a lot You should go out to LA, and you can make a lot of money." And he set up two interviews for me. One at CAA, and one at this company
[37:11] called Leading Artists. And um got the job at in the mail room at CAA making 15 cents a mile. What did you learn in the mail room? That I hated it. I learned how to actually drive around LA. And I learned, you know, the hierarchy of the business, business affairs people, studio heads, where star At the time, where movie stars played. That whole You felt you were in the mix. >> Yeah. The movie business, how important
[37:41] it was, but the television made business made a lot of money. And I realized I could never be in the movie business. Why? >> Cuz you would do You would have to do coverage while you're in the mail room. I'm dyslexic. Movie script, 130 pages, 120 pages. TV script, 30 pages. >> [laughter] >> I'm not spending all weekend on a movie. I'm going to do Now, that little thing, cuz the money was in television. That little change, two doors. Yeah. >> Bang. And then, when we started
[38:11] Endeavor, with George Gilder's book, and I'm reading it in Life After Television, I'm like, "There's going to be a lot more distribution. There's only so much content creators at the time. Content was going to change and expand, but there's limited just supply and demand. Prices are going up for creators. And television, where you could make and when I was at I went on Bill Haber's
[38:42] desk, the head of television at the time. It was Mike Ovitz Ron Meyer Bill Haber. The huge money huge money was coming in cuz of television. Not that the movie business wasn't, because you had the DVD dividends at the time, and gross participation, and everything else. But, you had a hit television show, like Alf, I remember sitting at the desk listening to all the calls, and there was a fight between Mike Ovitz and Bernie Brillstein on Alf, and who what they were paying out. That thing paid out a fortune. And then, it paid out syndication one, syndication
[39:12] two, you know, and all the different And I was like, "That baby's for me." >> What was the key to being an exceptional agent, or is the key to being an exceptional >> Being relentless. When you're trying to get somebody staffed, and you One of the greatest things Robbie Lance ever taught me, "You know why people call me back?" Robbie used to say in his in a Austrian accent. "Cuz I represent Miloš Forman, who did Amadeus, and I represent Peter Shaffer. I represent Al Pacino. They'll call you back." So, having a great client meant
[39:42] you had access. And so you had to have taste. And you had to get great clients. And once you did that and and and and they can continue to grow, you became more and more powerful. And so that's what I did. >> How did you get your first great client? Who was it? I'm at CAA and I go to this company Intertalent. And Mark Rosen I'm not sure if it was my first client or might have been my second client. Cuz Greg Daniels who created The Office and King of the Hill
[40:12] >> [clears throat] >> and Parks and Rec. I He might have been my first client, but but Amy Lippman who created Party of Five also might have been I I'm I'm not I'm too old. >> [laughter] >> Um but yeah, they had created a show. I thought the shows were great. Took over those clients. They led to other clients. And then back then there was no YouTube. There was no Instagram. There was none of that. There was no No, people weren't creating that way. The great shows were Saturday Night Live
[40:43] to The Simpsons. This whole Harvard Lampoon group. That was kind of like and all those [clears throat] a lot of them, not all. SNL guys, the writers, cuz I was in the writer business. Came from the Lampoon. Harvard. Go to Harvard. >> So, signed a bunch of people off of that, put them on SNL. SNL they went to The Simpsons or they had the pedigree and then you moved them around. I have like a bizarrely specific question. I've been on the receiving end of like what it's like to
[41:14] communicate with you and your team. It's unlike anything that I've experienced in terms of the speed and like like the minute you >> The velocity of it. >> Yeah, the velocity like you get engaged and then it's just like >> You feel like you got plugged into the Matrix or something. What What is that? What's the origin of >> I have no idea. >> Can you describe how it works? >> I use the phone. I use it as a weapon. >> [laughter] >> And I have two people working for me. And I do do now a lot of stuff on AI. >> Yeah. With regard to conference calls and follow-up and
[41:46] but my system What is your system? I want to know what the system is. >> have no idea. I just I I've I've grown it over years that it's kind of like it's it's own animal. What's the principle behind it? Follow-up? Relentless follow-up? >> relentless follow-up and communication. Yeah. Yeah, over communication. >> Like my brother Zeke is horrible at it. He's my oldest brother. I say to him, "I just sent you this to call this person cuz you asked me and I've connected you. And the next call is not that person. What are you doing?"
[42:17] >> [laughter] >> Like I don't understand. It drives me crazy with my kids, too. Like my my my middle kid is very good at it, who's in the business, who's in the entertainment, because he's seen me do it. But one is you got to communicate, you got to over-communicate. If they're not getting back to you, got to keep on calling them. Like, "What are you doing?" Like, that's the job. How do you make people love you for it versus be annoyed by it? >> I don't know if people love me for it, but I I try and make it like I know >> They they respect it. I know you want to kill me. You know, you have to Yeah, yeah. bring levity to it. So, but it is
[42:47] it is a It works. >> It's a force. I understand that. >> Yeah. How many calls do you think you do? >> A lot. >> [laughter] >> A lot. My friend Pete Berg was in the car with me once and he said, "We were coming back." I don't remember. We're coming back from a golf match. And he's [snorts] sitting in the car and the system starts. Mhm. The phone calls and and the phone calls can be from presidents of the United States to a young actor, a writer, an idea I want. And he turns to me in the middle of it and he goes,
[43:17] "I I'm too anxious right now. I can't breathe." [laughter] And I'm like, "What's the problem?" He goes, "Do you realize what's going on on that thing?" And you know, "Yeah, I know. I I don't I I I I I'm sorry about it." >> It just works. I'm sorry if it like >> No, I love it. I think it's fantastic. >> Did I come at you pre or my system? No, it just it just you feel it just feels different. It feels like the thing matters. Yeah. That's nice. Too few things feel like they matter. Yeah. And so I think you're good at it. >> Well, I mean, if I'm going to be
[43:47] involved in something, Yeah. it matters to me. So, therefore I'm going to take it to the point where I can get it done. >> What have you learned from Egon? You know, the great thing about him is he continues to want to learn. I mean, he's a guy that's made a lot of money. He takes a lot of big risks. I mean, but he's smart about them. Eminem used writes all the time, songs. He writes writes writes writes writes beforehand and then when he gets in there, he calls his riff. Jay-Z This is what Rick Rubin told me. He doesn't write any of his lyrics.
[44:20] They're about to start. He comes back in. Tune hits. He does the rap. He's instinctual, but incredible. Egon does unbelievable analysis. And I saw it in our tech private. I see it when he goes after a company. He's He's relentless. When he wants something. He takes criticism. For a a guy at his level, big guy, as good as he is, taking criticism and listening to it and absorbing it and
[44:51] then adapting with it, incredible. That That is I've never seen that. Most of these guys, they're alone. Go [ __ ] yourself. >> [laughter] >> But he does all those. It's really incredible. And then he learns from it, adapts. I don't know of anybody who's a There's probably people as on par with him. I haven't I don't know a lot of them. I don't think there's any better. He's a He He has a point of view on on
[45:22] industries. Like he came after me. He was tech guy. Here's where I think the business is going, which matched up with mine. Content, etc. >> [clears throat] >> So, he has visions in there. But then the the superpower, probably one of the best financial engineers I've ever seen. Of all these guys. Like it's not even close. Defined as knowing what he wants and being able to execute on that vision. >> at a balance sheet, he sees a different language
[45:52] than most dudes. Like and sees the value proposition. And has been like not 30% right. Like 70% right. That's [ __ ] rare. How do you think about your own investing that's not one of these massive major platforms? It's just like a normal investment. How do How do you do that in your life? >> You know, I don't know. >> Listen, I got I got some big investments called TKO.
[46:22] And I'll bet on myself and and um and uh Mari. I I'm betting on myself. Yeah. I'm not smart enough now I bonds. I'm not smart enough to to know. I believe in Elon Musk. Talk about him a little bit. I know you recently saw some of the robotic stuff. You're talking about that. Tell tell me where your impression was. Well, I saw the three or four generations of the hand. You know, I came up to him and said I wanted to UFC fights with the robots. That's one of the things we started talking about. And I sent Dana the when we were in We
[46:52] just had a fight in China. I sent him to see some of the robots there to see if we could then do a fight. Chinese versus American. >> Yeah, yeah, it was really great. >> Wow, everyone in the world would watch that. All right. >> [clears throat] >> So, I went up to see him. The three or four iterations of the hand. The Optimus hand. What did you see? I mean, just the how much technology was from one to four or one to three, I don't remember, was unbelievable. And what the hand could do beyond I mean, it's it's it does what you and I do.
[47:24] And then he showed me a couple of them that could fight and throw punches and kicks and the balance and the pushing, unbelievable. If I'm a betting man, first of all, if I'm a betting man, I'm betting on that dude. I bet a lot of them on SpaceX. X XAI Twitter. I almost hesitate to ask cuz it's everyone knows Elon's awesome and or has been awesome and is great at what he does. But what How would you describe his greatness? Like what what's your interpretation of it? I'm having Thanksgiving at my house with my brother Rom who's in the Obama administration.
[47:55] He was chief of staff. Elon's a friend. And we was falling off a cliff. >> Mhm. So, we're in California. I said, "Hey, can we come down to see SpaceX and Tesla?" Yeah. >> [snorts] >> Now, the president's bailing out car companies. Elon, cuz I know it, Tesla's in trouble. He's sleeping cuz there's cars backed up that have to be fixed. He's I mean, starting a new car company. He's sleeping there. Like he did at Twitter,
[48:27] SpaceX. And he's just he just will not stop. Just will not stop until it's fixed. And [snorts] so, you know, we get in there. He walks with my brother, shows him SpaceX. This is at the beginning, '08. >> Yeah, nothing yet. >> Nothing SpaceX, right? He's building it. And he's got these two things. My brother gave him got the president to give him like But he was sleeping
[48:57] there on 2-hour sleep. And I think he he needs that in his life to even though he hates it at times, cuz I remember him calling me and he hated He was so upset with Tesla and and what should he do with it and we we would have conversations. But he wills things with sheer brains and power and guts and endurance to make them.
[49:27] Right? And that's his superpower. Cuz it it gives in a weird way, even though it's I think emotionally brutal on him, take in taking all the punches and and feeling that, It also does give him in a huge amount of energy and and emotional satisfaction. You've got the show called Rushmore, which is about greatness. What is it about greatness that so drives your I I don't believe in legacy. You know, I don't believe that business people have legacies. I think Elon will have a legacy. I think Jeff Bezos will
[49:58] I think Steve Jobs has a legacy. Probably mostly it's That's about it. You know, presidents. >> Yeah. Leaders. Maybe some actors. >> [snorts] >> But, you know, but I do think there's characteristics of those four people that are important to know about. Like, how did they get there? And is it are there patterns? Um and uh as we just said, we just did a Rushmore on the '90s of music with Jimmy Iovine and Rick Rubin. >> How fun. >> Who are two guys that should be as producers on Rushmore, in my opinion.
[50:29] You know, but we as humans can at least see greatness and how they do it and then adapt it or learn something there and take that learning and and keep on evolving. But, I think it's always important to kind of learn from history. You as if rhymes and then take things and use them in your own life and that's why I'm doing it. What have you learned about with a with a life like the one you've led? Yeah. It's not lacking adventure. How to talk to your kids about it and and not create a circumstance where
[51:00] there's a expectation >> Well, you know, I got a I got a daughter that works at the WWE. I got a son that's working for Rick Caruso. Hopefully, knock wood, he runs for governor. Governor. And then my son is in the business. He's a producer. And the other one works at Apple. I have and they have had unbelievable luxury. I think if you ask people, I hope if you they're pretty normal kids. Cuz one, they weren't over programmed. I wasn't a helicopter father.
[51:32] Their mother wasn't a helicopter mother. The summers they ran around in Rhode Island and played golf and played tennis. There wasn't like >> [snorts] >> and if they did stupid [ __ ] They heard about it. >> they they got punished. [laughter] And they didn't run our lives. So, they're pretty normal kids and I'm not sitting there trying to always help them. I I make an introduction and then Their job. It's their job.
[52:02] Even though they hate they would tell you, Yeah. >> [snorts] >> Like, eldest son, no, it's one of my favorite moments. We were in We're flying somewhere and he goes, "I just want to be normal." I said, "Who the [ __ ] wants to be normal? Like, [laughter] normal sucks, right? Like right? What the [ __ ] is normal? Like, normal, what is that? I don't even know what that is. So, When you ask around, everyone says if it People say a lot of things, mostly amazing about you. One is that everyone says is that you're one of the consummate deal makers.
[52:32] What is a great deal? Like, what in your mind Some of you agree that you've made a lot of great deals. Like, what is a great deal? What is a great process of deal making? You know, when you're making a deal and they're all different, both sides have to feel good. Mhm. Your job is to make sure the other side, whether it's true or not, feels good. Mhm. Simple. That's not easy. How do you do that? What's the art of that? You know, there's there's so much there's so much >> [laughter] >> there's there's there's so much nuance to that. Sometimes, it's just a fight.
[53:03] You're just aggressive. Like, okay, we're in a battle. Certain people and certain negotiations and everybody feels this, you know, you're in a dance, right? And you're kind of like trying to get them and you know, you're just you just have to hang in there and and and do the dance till we get to the end of the song. And it's not a battle. I mean, I've been in screaming matches. Like like, okay, [ __ ] you. We're going to I'm you know, I know you need it. I you know I need it. We're just What's yelling and talking about? >> we're we're firing guns. Like, it's We're shooting.
[53:34] I like the second one better. And that's just about charm and that's just about kind of knowing all kind of how how you have to play. Sometimes, you got to get mad and you know, and it it takes time. Although, I mean, it's it's it's Somebody was asking me, "What what's the art?" >> Yeah. It is so complicated. Like, >> can't be reduced. Yeah, I don't know if it can be reduced. That's when I was constantly on the field. I was always the first one. I was always shooting. I was always in a fight, >> [laughter] >> Right. as I've gotten You're dancing more.
[54:04] >> as I've gotten Bigger. There's a lot more dancing. More dancing. Yeah. I was a pretty ugly fighter, though. >> Let's say more about Constantly angry, pissed off. And you're standing in the way of where cuz I've already played the chess match out. If I get this this this done, here's what happens. Like, you're standing in the way of my chess match. Like, that's why I'd be pissed. >> [laughter] >> Seemed to work, though. >> Yeah, it worked. Yeah. I like the extremes. What's the fastest money you've ever made and what's the longest game you've ever had to play? My greatest negotiation. Can I do it
[54:34] that way? >> Yeah, of course. The greatest deal I ever made was quote unquote merging with William Morris, $44 million. Paid out the CFO and Jim Wiatt. They never thought we were going to write a check for $20 million and have the votes to fire them. Patrick Whitesell and I did that in got the deal done in the merger done, I think, in a year. And and they they they had a horrible culture, so everybody hated each other and we just played the chess match on
[55:05] their side and and then took over the company and brought in Silver Lake and Rest is history. >> Yeah. And that then led to everything. Just to zoom in on that negotiation a little bit. They were in trouble. Financially? They just were losing clients and financially in trouble and they all hated each other and they knew they didn't have good leadership and and we could just keep on putting out bad press on them and taking agents and taking clients over the Yeah, we took It took seven years to to do that and then once we
[55:35] were in the room to you know, and then we just pitted board members against them and brought them on our side cuz we actually treated them well. We actually did. >> [snorts] >> And then when the vote came, before the merger, like you guys now have to get rid of Jim Wiatt cuz he's a disaster and the CFO, all their hands went up because they realized, "Wait a second, these guys are good guys." And we were. And so, we just even before the merger closed, they got
[56:05] rid of them and then the whole and then it just all happened. And and then that led to Egon coming into my life. Teddy had gotten sick and and passed away, Teddy Forstmann. Going after IMG and it was the best deal I've ever made. What was that flip like from agent to owner? This is where Egon was a great teacher, you know. He helped us think through cuz we knew we were going after IMG. And then once we had IMG, I knew I you
[56:35] know, just I don't I don't I knew instinctually Patrick took over the college football business that they had and I moved to the UK. And I took over IMG. And that's how we split [snorts] the baby. And nobody was telling me I had to move to the UK. I just realized, "Wait a second, I just spent $2.4 billion. You better [ __ ] get your ass to the UK and understand that business, right?" And none of those people wanted to stay cuz they didn't want us to win. IMG didn't want us to win. They wanted somebody else to win. They
[57:05] wanted Chernin Group to win. And this is where I I learned a lot from Egon in this negotiation. He says, I think the the Chernin They were going to pay I think it was 1.9 billion and he said, "We're paying 2.4." I said, "2.4?" Why don't we pay 2.1? He goes, "We're going to make it so they can't Can't say no. Can't say no and they can't go back. Cuz they don't want us." And he was 100% right. Paid 2.4, we get it. And then I realized, this is my money. Like,
[57:35] time to move. Family stayed in Rhode Island and LA. I moved for I think it was four or five months. To the UK. And all over Europe. I went to Spain for tennis business. All I mean, all over. Learned all the players. >> [snorts] >> Uh that's another place where I I kind of when I got done, I was I was physically Fried. >> fried. Yeah. Cuz I was then flying back on weekends and flying I mean, it was crazy. And then I represent writers, directors, actors.
[58:07] Plus, I had to do that. So, that was kind of like when it all happened. Do you care about money anymore? Like, are you motivated by money? I didn't really care about money since my first show went into syndication. When King of the Hill went into syndication, What what happened then? You just made enough that it just I mean, I was making 15 cents a mile, right? Yeah. When you're making 15 cents a mile and and then all of a sudden, I mean, you can go look at the math. It was it was $6 million an episode. Yeah. And they did 14 seasons.
[58:37] It's you know, you're okay. So then, what what if money sunsetted, what became the thing? I want to be right. My ideas, I want to make sure that they're right. Because that feels good. [clears throat] >> Yeah. And you are. Yeah. Simple as that. >> Yeah. You know, I'm not I'm not I'm not the stupidest, Emmanuel. >> [laughter] >> You know, I still have competition with those two. Emotionally. >> What have you learned from Rahm? Talk to my brother Rahm about politics. And you can talk to him about a lot of other things, but when it comes to his métier. And we're not talking about
[59:08] just domestic politics. We're talking about global politics. Like, how to handle allies in Asia to combat China or what to do on Israel or any subtext. There's nobody more thought I mean, I'm not going to I'm going to boast It's my brother Rahm. When you look at the potential field of potential candidates for president and there's some I mean
[59:39] Gretchen Whitmer I know I know Josh. I know a lot of these guys and they're all very qualified. >> [snorts] >> Um on a global basis. And he is as relentless and as driven as I am and what I do. Was in two White Houses. Was the whipping Congress. Was a mayor of a big city. And understands everything going on in one of the biggest most important areas in the world for us Asia. And had galvanized and his
[60:09] responsibility as as ambassador galvanized that region to combat China. There's nobody more qualified. Whether that makes him the president you know the future candidate I have no idea. But my brother understands you know we were talking about it used to be when you were CEO it was bilateral. It's just bilateral. Now it's multilateral, right? I don't think anybody looks at that board better than him in politics and in global issues. Um and that's a rare and he learned from
[60:41] incredible people. Bill Clinton was incredible. Obama was Worked out their agenda. He is and and at at details like you can ask him about the Supreme Court in Pennsylvania issues and how they handle that. I mean he's down he he's he's at an inch. I'm at an inch in my business. He's at an inch. And he understand then what that means for the congressional races is what that means for the Senate. The messaging that you
[61:11] have to do to kind of like and how to stay on message. I mean he's and Zeke he is just hysterical. I mean you know I mean I love him. He's he's a bioethicist. He's he's I think he's incredible thinking about medicine. Why why why he does what he does I have no idea and he loves it. And so I just love him. What happens when you're no longer at the one-inch level? When you are no longer in deep in the flow? Well I'm not I'm not now at William Morris. And so has it been easy? Yeah. I just
[61:42] said this to one of the companies that I run Craig Bear Jackson and Craig Jackson wants to step back. And I said to him you know you're never stepping back. He was what he's talking about. I said well here's what I did. Let's go private. Richard Weitz and Christian Muir are going to take over the business. And they're they're going to do some really great things and they're going to [ __ ] [ __ ] up. And you know the only way they're going to learn? By doing those two things. By [ __ ] [ __ ] up. You don't really learn that much for doing good things.
[62:12] And I said and you've got to permit the fuck-ups. And the problem is I said I started my business 31 years ago. I it's my it's my name. Your father started your business and now it's your name. You just won't let anybody [ __ ] up. What's the worst thing that could happen if it [ __ ] up? Is the business going away? No. So let them [ __ ] up. That thought process not a lot of people have that run companies. What was your most formative fuck-up? The thing you [ __ ] up that taught you the most? Well I I [ __ ] up all the I mean thank god Mark Shapiro's in my life and he's
[62:42] in my life. I I think the biggest fuck-up truly cuz we're we're building the business and you know you pick bad people and you >> [clears throat] >> but we had a bad meeting Patrick and I White Hall with um Irv Wyne Trobe, Jim Wyatt and Dave Wershafter. And I went nuts cuz they said cuz I said cuz they weren't they I was playing the chess match out and they didn't let me get to the end and I and I actually went talking about the negotiation I screamed at them. We're sitting at a table like this at
[63:13] the Bel Air or no the Beverly Hills Hotel. I mean I went nuts. I I said I said you don't know what the [ __ ] you're talking about. We could buy you. You know we're like two inches big and it's William Morris. And because we were more profitable. And Irv Wyne Trobe said I said you you know nothing about business and I go [ __ ] talking about it I go [ __ ] nuts and I go to and Patrick to his credit you know he knows when I hit the Defcon four or five he just get the [ __ ] out of
[63:43] the way. Meeting ends. It's over. Yeah. What I talked about this was when I was >> [clears throat] >> and we're walking down Wilshire and he goes well that's over. I said no that's not over. This is happening. >> [laughter] >> And so you know a year and a half later two years later it was back on the table but that was a fuck-up cuz it it just pushed us pushed us way way back but I just I I I thought Defcon I was so pissed. What do you think the future of TV and movies are? There's going to be a lot more of them. And I I actually think what I said to
[64:14] you I think that you're going to have you're seeing it now. Marketing companies are going to podcasters and streamers and marketing with them or giving them brands and giving them ownership to to sponsor them and market them. And sometimes they sponsor them and sometimes they ask them to take equity and same thing's going to happen with content. We talked about this. I think the cost is going to go down to zero or very close. And Dwayne Johnson, Mark Wahlberg, Dana
[64:44] White Pat McAfee they're all going to become their own channels. I do believe actually I don't know if that's in two years or in seven years. And so then representation has to change its in in infrastructure. Like we changed when we took over sports to be able to handle that conversation. With regard to licensing, marketing, all that stuff. >> So so like give me advice like I have a channel. I think the podcasting business
[65:14] is going to become like the cable business. It's going to become like Oprah. What does that mean? You know Oprah had Dr. Phil and Oh I see. She sponsored people and then she took them out in syndication on the station groups. You're going to find a young you. And maybe it's in medicine. Or maybe it's in something that interests you. And you're going to bring them into the fold with your sponsors, your your distribution and everything. You're going to take a piece of it. And maybe there's a product that comes off of it and
[65:45] you're going to own a piece and he's and then you're going to figure out maybe I need my own um sponsorship marketing team internally and so you're going to become you I you know somebody needs to you're Oprah. Yeah. You become Oprah. >> [laughter] >> And so that's what that's what great right? >> Sounds good to me. And so that will be the first iteration of this. You never know you might find a movie that you like or a documentary you like and you send it out to your subs. And then
[66:15] I I there's multiple ways you can monetize that. Maybe you turn that into a book. That's going to be the business. Yeah. What's your craziest view on the future of sports? Like you we'll start finish where we started. >> Prices are going way up. Prices for everything? Prices for teams. Okay talk about that cuz like in the NFL everyone's like there's no more rich guys to buy the teams. Well they'll just change they'll go from PE firms owning 10%. Don't make 50 year. Yeah 35 you know and they'll instead of they can only take a billion dollars of debt out
[66:45] they'll take they can take two billion dollars. I mean Yeah. It'll just go up. >> That [ __ ] will change. But the price of sports for the end user is going to be more. Therefore then the price of there's going to be tiers at Netflix you know with the sports with the sports tier you pay $15. Yeah. They're going to have to make a decision when do they go direct? >> It depends when >> Yeah. Yeah. Depends on when this thing caps out. >> Mhm. We just saw a big input of money
[67:16] which is betting that will increase. That that >> The market. That market will increase and the amount of money they pay will increase. Premium ticket will go up and ticketing will go up and Prices are going up. Prices going up. What do you think of gambling? What do you think of betting? Well I think it's good actually in the following way. For us I'm just talking about our businesses. The more data the more you can't cheat. And I think what's going to happen you'll have AI companies come in and look at all the data and you won't be
[67:46] able there nobody's going to you're going to understand you're going to triangulate and understand there's something happening over here with this picture and and you're going to look at video and and it's going to be like boom. So hard to cheat. It will be harder to cheat. Now not that people won't try. I think it helps the engagement. Now do I think gambling is good is a different conversation. Do you? I don't gamble. Do I think gambling is good? I I have I I have very
[68:17] you know how I I come at you hard? Imagine what I do to my kids on gambling Smoking. >> health, smoking and drinking. >> [laughter] >> I feel bad for my children. I mean it's unrelenting. Articles. Conversations. Yeah. It's horrible. Yeah. But it you know that's that's the job of a being a parent. When you see the tech the layer of massive technology companies I mean you talked to all these guys all the time I'm sure. What's your impression of like what's going on in like big tech kind of writ large? >> So here's my understanding with with
[68:48] Sam. Sam has made a trillion two in obligations. It's a big number whatever it is. He has 800 million subs. Let's just say it does 14 billion in revenue. It'll probably lose five billion. Do you understand it? I'm I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm definitely not as smart as you or any of these investors. They must see something and the only way it pays off unless I'm wrong now George Gilder would scream at me. He goes every technology has created more jobs.
[69:18] This is the only technology at this level of spend you have to be taking jobs. Jobs have to go away. And then the government's going to have to pick them up and we're going to be more efficient and okay. I don't understand the math. I'm not smart enough to understand the math. You know what I do know? How to put on a fight. And put on an event. That's what I know. >> [laughter] >> I just don't understand this math. Who is the person that you represent or have represented that's the most innovative in this landscape right now? You mentioned Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson, he seems pretty damn innovative. >> Yeah. They're all testing new you know
[69:50] Kim Kardashian is, Mark Wahlberg is, Dwayne Johnson is. They're all kind of looking at it and figuring out um how to play in it. Not all of them. Like Aaron Sorkin isn't. Larry David isn't. But you know, they're just great creators. Marty Scorsese isn't. He's just a great creator. But there's some um actors, writers, directors that are looking at it and trying to figure out where they sit in it. And I think the first thing they all have to do,
[70:20] they have to start playing with it. And they're all starting to play with it. What has you most worried about the future and most excited about the future? >> are you Do you have kids? Yeah. I'm worried for my kids. Why? >> You mean I didn't tell you this? So I'm sitting there, I'm having my normal every 6-month meeting, lunch, dinner with Elon and we're talking about AI. He said this to me, he goes life cannot be disrupted. I said, "Okay." >> [laughter] >> I have 2 years. So um
[70:50] and we're talking about AI and he goes to me All right, do you have a dog? I said, "Yeah." AI is you and you're the dog. >> [laughter] >> I said, "I don't like that." He goes, "That's what's happening. That's going to happen." Well, you and I have kids. Like I haven't figured out which you know, as a parent we have to think about it. What Where my kids sit. That makes me nervous. That makes me really cuz I'm like You're kind of sad. >> I'm over the hill. Yeah. 4 months I'm 65. Who gives a [ __ ] about me?
[71:21] >> [laughter] >> You know, I have I have 30-year-olds. I have a 23-year-old that works at Apple. Like And you know, I I I've heard him speak about his kids. That's hard. Like what what do you What are we telling them? What are they supposed to be doing? What do you think the answer to that is? >> I don't know. I actually don't know. >> have a guess? No, I don't. Do you? You talk to a lot of people. What's what's What are they saying to you? Create things. Make things. >> Right. Ideas. Yeah, ideas. Use use the tools. >> Yeah. Make new things.
[71:52] >> Yeah. So far these things aren't going to make everything. And I'm not sure how fast I mean, I know everybody's everybody's saying it's coming very fast. So there's an a numerator and denominator here, right? In the United States, I think it's just us and China really. But um you know, I don't know if it's the numerator numerator or the denominator, but there's this thing called energy and energy delivery that I'm not sure yet
[72:24] is there for it to be in the next at at full AGI capacity. Meaning literally the power? >> The power and also how we deliver the power. So it's a big problem so But yes. It'll take a while. Yeah. It's going to take a while. >> Yeah. So we have a little bit of time. But we have to still be thinking like what the [ __ ] are we telling our kids? What about what's most exciting? I've started I've I've started this new business called
[72:55] Mari trying to make that into the next Live Nation there in music. Or you know, build this new company at having learned cuz I'm not a PE firm, but I'm a company. But I've learned all these different skill sets. Why why do that one separately than the original company with UFC and Because Silver Lake just wanted the WWE that William Morris to be He just wanted
[73:26] Endeavor to be an agency. So he was one selling down the events and a bunch of other assets that we wanted to buy at TKO to pay down the debt. And and Live is where I wanted to be. So I was like, "Fuck it. I'll just raise a bunch of money." And the good thing is which I felt really I felt really good about. I actually did feel really good. Like this crazy idea I had, people like saying, "Yeah, you're right." And so now I want to make them a lot of money. And which I've done for a lot of people. Then I'll make myself a lot more money.
[73:57] Not that I care, but I you know, it is a >> to be right. >> No, but I want to be right. It is a benchmark, right? And these people should make a lot of money cuz I want them to. And um yeah. I know you love art. What has the world of art taught you? You know, I have a very specific area of art I collect. >> Which is what? I collect African-American artist mainly American. But now Africa and other places. From about 19
[74:29] 40 to now. Why that? I don't know. It just spoke to me. I have no idea why. So it's from Sam Gilliam, Bob Thompson to Kara Walker, Mark Bradford to um Noah Davis He passed away. Incredible artist. Yeah. And I just I love it. And so I'm just like deep. >> Yeah. And unrelenting. >> [laughter]
[74:59] >> Shocking. Yeah. Long live. >> Yeah. My favorite question is my last one that I ask everybody. What is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you? >> Oh. The kindest thing anybody's ever given me is trust. You know, clients trust me to with their biggest dreams. Like crazy. When Tyler Perry comes to me and says, "Here's what I want to do." or Marty or Larry David or That's an incredible gift of kindness. Egon backing my play
[75:30] multiple times. And then I would just say to you like I have now in my life a great life. I never realized it before. I was just on on the field. And I have a great second wife, Sara Staudinger, who's got a great fashion business, Staud. And I think I have great brothers, but I have like four incredible kids. And that I'm a lucky guy.
[76:01] Cuz they I love them and they love me. It's a crazy as your kids get older. It's crazy to have these conversations with these things that are now adults. And they say to you and do things that are just beyond your imagination. And it is the nicest thing to see that happen in your life.
[76:31] From a kid from me that they didn't think I was supposed to go to college. And that that this this this life has happened for me. And my parents were incredible. So I was like I'm like the all those things collectively are >> A lot of kindness. kindness that that has happened. And um there's plenty of times I was not deserving of it. I definitely was not cuz I didn't realize
[77:01] how you're supposed to act and you know, you're supposed to get off the field and So yeah. I absolutely love talking to you. I love your energy. I love how you approach the world. You're so distinct and interesting. Thank you so much for your time. >> I really appreciate you.